Tuesday, February 17, 2015

AND THEY'LL KNOW WE ARE CHRISTIANS BY OUR WHINING.

I think most of my readers will agree that the murder by ISIS of Christians in Egypt is bad, right? Well, that's not enough for conservatives -- you have to agree with them that Christians here in the States are persecuted, too, or you suffer from "anti-Christian bias." Here's Rod Dreher's brain-teaser on the subject, from his evocatively-titled post "Lions & Christians in America":
The mass martyrdom last week of the 21 Egyptian Copts at the hands of ISIS is a sobering reminder of what real persecution looks like. Yet it is also the kind of thing that people in this country who fear and loathe Christians point to as an argument-ender when Christians complain about social injustice against themselves, e.g., “Get back to me when they’re chopping Christian heads off, then we’ll talk.” I would point out that ISIS is throwing gay men out of high windows to their deaths, and the crowds below are finishing off the job with stones. No secular liberal would — nor should — accept the argument that gays in the US have no right to complain against discrimination because they don’t have it as bad as gays in ISIS-held territory. So let’s put that cheap argument to bed.
Based on this, if some nut on the other side of the world is persecuting your affinity group, you're being persecuted here as well, or should at least be treated as if you were. I wonder if Dreher knows that ISIS is a champion killer of Muslims, and would agree that we should for that reason hold our domestic Muslims as a persecuted group as well, and tell their stateside critics like Pam Geller and Daniel Pipes to fuck off.

No chance of that -- you can read farther down Dreher's post about the media's "normalization of homosexuality," just a small number of paragraphs after Dreher was using gays as a point of comparison with Christians. At National Review, Jim Geraghty also thinks the newsies are unfair to American Christians; he heads toward the same affirmative-action argument we often get about conservatives in the press, but is smart enough to realize that most reporters are probably at least nominally Christian -- or else Jewish, and he can't complain about that; think what Bibi Netanyahu would say! -- so he takes an interesting tack:
Last night I argued that in most media newsrooms, the notion of Christians as victims doesn’t fit their usual narratives. Fournier argued that there are a lot of Christians in the Times newsroom, and that the Times has a lot of reporters in the Middle East, covering ISIS, at considerable risk to themselves. Both points are true but neither really refutes my argument. 
For starters, sure there are Christians in the Times newsroom, but not particularly representative ones. Here’s Nicholas Kristof, New York Times columnist, back in 2003: “Nearly all of us in the news business are completely out of touch with a group that includes 46 percent of Americans. That’s the proportion who described themselves in a Gallup poll in December as evangelical or born-again Christians.”
So it's not enough for reporters to go to some modern Church where anything goes -- one has to roll hard and roll holy! Picture the new breed of newsroom quota-Christians: Fear-God Gump and Barebone McGillicuddy, working on a Style section piece about a hip new way to handle snakes.

My own solution would be regular cats-for-Christ slideshows, which should give everybody what they want, or at least deserve.

UPDATE. Mmm, them's some good comments, e.g., Megalon:
[Dreher says,] "The mass martyrdom last week of the 21 Egyptian Copts at the hands of ISIS is a sobering reminder of what real persecution looks like." 
Yes it is. That's why you and your cohorts in this country trying to claim that having to accept a paying job to bake a gay wedding cake means you're being persecuted the same way is so offensive. Especially when it's coming from a man who often talks like he's about ten minutes away from converting and joining IS himself.
Also, Hob runs down Kristof's shady "a group that includes 46 percent of Americans" = fundies claim and finds it possibly lacking. I wouldn't be surprised, but then, the claim is 15 years old -- maybe since then millions of Americans have got born-again, moved to the haunts 'n' hollers, and stopped voting, which explains how Obama won twice.

UPDATE 2. If we ever get Cats for Christ (no not this one) off the ground, I think we have to use ADHDJ's topline: "I'm not purrfect, just furgiven."

165 comments:

  1. If those Copts, with their dark complexions, Arabic language, and "other" ways, had been living in Alabama, they would have been persecuted. Only the secular nature of this country prevents massacres like this, and talibangelicals are trying to dismantle that.

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  2. M. Krebs1:46 PM

    The mass martyrdom last week of the 21 Egyptian Copts at the hands of ISIS is a sobering reminder of what real persecution looks like.


    NEVERTHELESS....

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  3. “Get back to me when they’re chopping Christian heads off, then we’ll talk.”



    I don't know of anyone who actually says that. Their persecution complex has been going on far longer than ISIS has even existed

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  4. "Get back to me when someone not openly professing to love the literal baby Jebus has the remotest chance of being President" would be more like it.

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  5. Brother Yam1:57 PM

    I love the way he sneaks in "martyrdom" for people who would normally be considered "murdered." I wonder if the Muslim victims of murder are also martyrs? Or does Dreher not consider them worthy of the title?

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  6. Long exegesis on theocons incoming.

    The interesting part about this recent wave of kvetching about "religious rights" is just how narrow it is. Going by what jokers like Dreher and Geraghty have to say, a distrust of queers is the heart and soul of Christianity. That's news to me. Leaving aside the historical position of the church (which amounted to a "don't ask, don't tell" policy for long stretches) and just looking at contemporary America, there's no way you can cast anti-gay policies as any sort of serious tradition. Anti-gay was not a major part of the evangelical movement when I was born. It seems more like it runs back about 20 years - about the time that general public opinion on homosexuality started to shift, suggesting that this is as much about culture as it is about religion, if not moreso.

    So I'd like to suggest an alternate theory as to why these numbnuts are bellyaching now. Their real complaint is that they're losing influence, both over the political machine of the country at large and over their own subculture. There's been a lot of talk about how young evangelicals don't care about social issues, but you can see that among adults as well - note the recent announcement by the pastors at an influential megachurch that they'll be accepting openly gay parishioners from now on. Fact is, the power of the gatekeepers is eroding. The old Religious Right still has plenty of clout, but it's shrinking as the nominally "traditionalist" members start to move away from politics.

    In short, Dreher isn't upset about "persecution," he's upset that he doesn't get to calibrate our moral compass anymore. No one's pleased when he loses power, but most people don't whine quite so much.

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  7. smut clyde2:08 PM

    Nearly all of us in the news business are completely out of touch with a
    group that includes 46 percent of Americans. That’s the proportion who
    described themselves in a Gallup poll in December as evangelical or
    born-again Christians.


    So that 46% of Americans prefer to get vaguely relaity-based news through the pagan press instead of confining themselves to the Evangelical Press Agency? Is this a problem?

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  8. coozledad2:12 PM

    After 9/11 a baptist minister in Oxford, NC, stood in the pulpit and claimed that the owners of American Hero (a sub shop) had cheered when the towers fell, and called on his congregation to boycott them A-Rabs. They were Coptic Christians actually, and of course he was just making shit up.


    I don't think the shun would be a particularly bad idea for both the preacher and the members of his congregation who believed his lying ass.

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  9. KC45s2:15 PM

    Both points are true but neither really refutes my argument.
    As if conservatives ever let their arguments get refuted by facts.

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  10. coozledad2:16 PM

    "Get back to me when they’re blowing Muslim students' heads off for shits and giggles, then we’ll talk.”

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  11. Where is this "46% of all Americans are born-again" thing coming from? The only thing I can find that vaguely resembles that claim is this ABC poll (from what year, I can't tell) that says 47% of all US Protestants are, which, along with a small number of born-again Catholics, makes 37% of all the Christian respondents or 30% all told.

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  12. Virtually all of this is a last ditch (I hope) attempt to maintain whatever power & control the droolers have as these United Snakes are dragged screaming into the 20th century.

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  13. raypc8002:29 PM

    I believe Jesus told his followers," that the more they were hated and persecuted. The more they were to rejoice for it was a sign that they were doing right. " Trouble is I see so much hate and persecution professed by all religions against other religions that it is very hard to distinguish which one is doing right.
    I feel the world would be much better off if all of the various and numerous religions would practice the treat ALL others the way you want to be treated.

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  14. Problem is, they all want to be martyrs, & all are happy to martyr any of a different "faith tradition".

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  15. Ted the slacker2:32 PM

    Shorter Geraghty: No true Scotsman would forget to play victim.

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  16. So let’s put that cheap argument to bed.


    There goes that Dreher fellow again, fornicating with one cheap argument after another. No wonder he has untreatable condescendscionitis, or "silly scrotum." The man has no shame.


    And he calls himself a Christian.

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  17. read farther down Dreher's post about the media's "normalization of homosexuality," just a small number of paragraphs after Dreher was using gays as a point of comparison with Christians

    Has anyone bothered to count how many faces that simpering shit has?

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  18. I wipe the tear of laughter from my eye and say to you, "T'was ever thus!"

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  19. For American Christians, intense persecution consists of other people who do not belong to the same sect. The mere existence of other-believers and non-believers is unbearable. (At least they have something in common with ISIS.)

    Personally, I'd like to transport these assholes back to, say, the 12th century so they could get a taste of what it really means to be persecuted for your beliefs.

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  20. They're all convinced that it will be THEIR religion that is adopted by the state.

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  21. tigrismus2:44 PM

    His one effort at supporting this supposed social injustice is an excerpt of an interview with a guy who writes seriously about "Christianophobia," and even he says, to quote Dreher, "[t]hey find that it is not general in society, but rather is confined to white, educated elites." They apparently aren't talking about specific cases of actual injustice, either, just "hostility" (of feeling), and even still they say "more people have hostility toward atheists than toward Christians."

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  22. heir real complaint is that they're losing influence


    Preach it, Brother! This is a group which equates 'freedom of religion' with banning all religions but their own. Naturally, if they don't have that power then they must be persecuted, just like Nero's christians (who probably DID cause the Great Fire).

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  23. Megalon2:54 PM

    "The mass martyrdom last week of the 21 Egyptian Copts at the hands of
    ISIS is a sobering reminder of what real persecution looks like."

    Yes it is. That's why you and your cohorts in this country trying to claim that you're being persecuted the same way is so offensive. Especially coming from a man who often talks like he's about ten minuets away from converting and joining IS himself.

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  24. "roll hard and roll holy" sounds like a good title of an action, Bruce Willis-type movie. They'd probably shorten it to "DIE Holy" (DIE Hard & Holy?) Hmm..


    At the climax of the movie Bruce would throw poisonous snakes at the Bad Guy, and they'd fang Bad Guy to death! Yes, he (Bruce) had been carrying them in his pockets all thru the movie, feeding them bits of meat and whatnot (slug of wine?), And after guns and rockets and lasers and bombs fail to stop the eeeevil (Muslims? Buddhist? Native Americans?) ones, Snakes save the day. DIE HOLY!

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  25. M. Krebs3:06 PM

    That's a good rule. We should give it a name.

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  26. Helmut Monotreme3:08 PM

    There's got to be some kind of name for the level of hyper-hypocrisy it takes to claim the fact that Christians can no longer commit violence and discrimination against gays is inflicting violence and discrimination on Christians just like if they were gay!

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  27. timb1173:08 PM

    Roy, Geraghty was on a local radio show, making the same points about Islam being the enemy. If you ever hear him do that, please do tweet "Have a nice holy war #americanjihadi." He gets really upset if you point out his rhetoric on Islam means something to a red-meat munching group of people who barely know what happens outside of Indiana. At least, the next 5 tweets from him, donning the hair shirt and accusing me of calling him a terrorist, sure seemed to be by an upset guy

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  28. Helmut Monotreme3:09 PM

    Tastes vary. Treat others like they would like to be treated.

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  29. Ted the slacker3:09 PM

    I guess if we are in the land of bogus equivalence, I might as well try my hand at it.
    You know how the shouty-heads are all, "why won't so-called moderate muslims condemn violence carried out by fanatics etc etc?" Ok, tell me this then. Why won't, lets call them regular Christians, like Dreher, call out their fellow travelers for War on Christmas type victimhood garbage?
    If you say you object to faked persecution, why don't you condemn it every time you see it? What are you hiding?

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  30. Or pure 24 karat stupid.

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  31. "Hello 911, what is your emergency?"
    "Help, help, they're after me!!"
    "Stay calm sir, where are you?"
    "Oh God, it's so horrible, they're coming for me!"
    "Sir, sir, who's after you? Can you get to a secure location?"
    "ISIS! ISIS is after me. And the gays! Also feminists!! They hate me for my beliefs!!"
    "..."
    "Can you send the police? But only Christian police. You can't trust the heathen police."
    "Mr. Dreher, let me talk to the librarian, please."
    [Click]

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  32. ""Can you send the police? But only Christian police. You can't trust the heathen police.""Mr. Dreher, I'll send a SWAT team."

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  33. smut clyde3:16 PM

    Perhaps Kristof (writing in 2003) had in mind a Gallup poll of December 2002, which only gave a "religous fervor / non-fervor" choice. His column went on to dwell on stereotypical New York liberal dinner parties, to tell us that "mockery of religious faith is inexcusable", and to finish with a few sententious words from Einstein... It appears to have been an exercise in how much banality could be squeezed into 2000 words.

    Anyway, the idea that "all of us in the news business are completely out of touch with christians" went down well with the ressentiment crowd, who pass Kristof's words around like a cheap argument being put to bed. As well as Geraghty, Dreher has gummed on it in the past.

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  34. After 9/11 the Sikh family down the street from us had their front yard TPd. One strong regret I'll always have is I DIDN'T go and remove the mess. I should have.

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  35. Well, it worked with Rome!

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  36. "facts have a well-known liberal bias!"

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  37. ADHDJ3:21 PM

    That's exactly it. Goldberg was doing the same thing the other day about Scott Walker and evolution --"people of traditional faith" is a codeword for evangelical megachurch Christianity (and a very specific flavor of it at that.)


    They are most definitely not referring to mainstream Judaism, Catholicism, the Eastern Orthodox church, Lutherans, Quakers, Episcopalians, Methodists, etc. "Traditional faith" is supposed to confer an inalienable right to gay-bash, to treat the notion that life begins at conception as a serious part of the Christian belief system despite the fact it's younger than the Happy Meal, it means the right to tar science itself as fundamentally anti-Christian without having to sacrifice any of the comforts of modern life.


    Actual "traditional faiths" have mostly (*) made peace with the modern secular world over the past few hundred years. To people like Dreher, Episcopalianism isn't a "traditional faith", but a church in a strip mall with a full rock band playing is, as long as they hate the same stuff he hates.


    (*) Yeah, Southern Baptists, I know.

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  38. JennOfArk3:22 PM

    “Nearly all of us in the news business are completely out of touch with a group that includes 46 percent of Americans. That’s the proportion who described themselves in a Gallup poll in December as evangelical or born-again Christians.”



    Yeah, well, see, there are reasons for that, starting with the fact that educational attainment amongst the evangelical crowd is a bit lower than it is with Catholics, mainline Protestants, and everyone else. So you'd expect to find fewer of them in a profession that requires a college degree.


    But the main reason is that you can't have someone who believes the earth is 6,000 years old working the science beat, or someone who believes that Jesus wrote the Constitution working the legislative or judicial beat.


    I mean, duh.

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  39. It's all fun and games until YOUR group is the ones being fed to the lions or crucified along the Appian Way.

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  40. M. Krebs3:45 PM

    Relevant:

    http://youtu.be/pTzKb-hJYOU

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  41. JamieT3:52 PM

    Dreher's just sucking up to those Christian conservative academics who follow him so they'll spring for the publicity tour for his new book his publisher thought better about funding.

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  42. I was going to point out the "Convert or die, Jew; your choice" moment in 15th century Spain, when I remembered that at that time Europe was about to embroil itself in a century's worth of Protestants burning Catholics, Catholics burning Protestants, etc. (None of which, of course, would suggest atrocities ever having been committed in the name of Jesus.)

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  43. Rod Flavor Dreher: "I got a right to be specious, man. My people been persecuted."

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  44. Tiny Tim3:58 PM

    I'm so glad the aughts era of notionally liberal scolds telling us that if only we were nicer to Jesus-Americans then Democrats would win all the elections is mostly over. Amy Sullivan, where are you now?

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  45. "I watched with glee while the kings and queens
    Fought for ten decades for the god they made."

    Sympathy for the Devil

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  46. My own solution would be regular cats-for-Christ slideshows, which should give everybody what they want, or at least deserve.



    i can get behind this

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  47. John Wesley Hardin4:06 PM

    So the word of one reporter, responding to a Gallup poll 12 years ago, can be used as a reliable indicator of what the Times newsroom is like. I guess that makes sense if you view the bible as a guide to modern living. The logic seems similar: someone wrote it down, it must still be true.

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  48. John Wesley Hardin4:09 PM

    "adopted by the state." WHAT is it with you libtards and statism? If we let the state be in charge of religion adopting, you can bet they would be placing religions with gay couples and single mothers in a heartbeat.

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  49. John Wesley Hardin4:12 PM

    "he's about ten minuets away from converting" Fortunately for Rod, he doesn't approve of dancing.

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  50. John Wesley Hardin4:15 PM

    No, but each of them are begging for a punch in the kisser.

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  51. The trick is that evangelicals/fundamentalists don't consider most of those groups to be "Christians," which means they don't really count. This is how these guys can claim to be part of an "oppressed minority" with a straight face. Here's the list of exclusions:

    - Roman Catholics (known as "legalists" in some fundamentalist circles) are right out - evangelicals hate and distrust them. Catholics occasionally get a day pass when some group needs them to fight slut pills or gay marriage, but that's it.
    - Orthodox churches don't have enough of a presence in most of the country for evangelicals to notice them, but the same rules apply to them as to the RCC - they don't count unless we need them.
    - Evangelicals consider LDS a cult, so Mormons are out (and copy-paste for Jehova's Witnesses).
    - As far as Protestants go, most Presbyterian and Methodist churches are too liberal. They're out.
    - Episcopalians are out - much too close to Catholics.
    - Pentecostals are out, as is any church with a charismatic traidition, because...well, because they're weirdos. I can't think of any other reason because no one could claim that they're insincere in their faith.
    - I'm not sure how Mennonites fit in to the equation, but I know I've never seen the Religious Right claim them. They're a bunch of pacifists, so I suppose that's enough reason to leave them out.
    - And if you think they'd ever count a bunch of hippies like the UCC, then clearly you're new at this.

    So basically, the only groups that count as "Christians" are most Baptists, non-denominational evangelical churches, and a few ultraconservative offshoots of mainline Protestant denominations. Those are the "traditionalists," the rest of them are fakers, zealots, or filthy seculars, and we don't need to consider their opinions.

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  52. John Wesley Hardin4:19 PM

    So, Snakes on McClane?

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  53. John Wesley Hardin4:19 PM

    Treats vary. Taste others like they would like to be tasted.

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  54. dstatton4:22 PM

    Mere toleration is not enough; they want their asses kissed.

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  55. swkellogg4:28 PM

    Ten minuets?


    Well, even if he can dance...


    he's still no friend of mine!

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  56. swkellogg4:33 PM

    Jesus may not have have written the constitution...


    but he most certainly built my hotrod.

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  57. edroso4:33 PM

    Geraghty was on local radio? Guess they're grooming him for superstar status. Is his vocal delivery as smooth as his disingenuousness?

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  58. Megalon4:35 PM

    Argggh, I knew something didn't look quite right! English spelling, how the fuck does it work?

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  59. Jay B.4:42 PM

    The mass martyrdom last week of the 21 Egyptian Copts at the hands of ISIS is a sobering reminder of what real persecution looks like.


    Yes. Which is why you look like the world's whiniest dink in every column you write.

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  60. smut clyde4:44 PM

    Other reasons being:
    1. Gallup's own analysts conclude that the 46% figure is meaningless because they asked a stupid question.
    2. Kristof is a smarmy git.
    That may not actually be a reason.

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  61. swkellogg4:49 PM

    Ouch.

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  62. Megalon4:49 PM

    Umm, O.K. I decided to delete the comment above and put an 'edit" note in my original post, but instead of being deleted, it got turned into a guest post? I admit, I do not understand the capricious ways of Disqus. Not in the slightest.

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  63. edroso4:53 PM

    I thought ten minuets was on purpose, Meg -- and I liked the bold usage -- but now that I know the truth, I'll correct it in the post!

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  64. ken_lov5:23 PM

    Well you know their caricatures of what they think liberals do are much more accurate than mere personal observation.

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  65. ken_lov5:24 PM

    Regardless of the merits or otherwise of your argument, Pam Geller and Daniel Pipes should still be told to fuck off. And deport Mark Steyn to Canada and Michelle Malkin to Mindanao while you're about it.

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  66. tigrismus5:27 PM

    I bet fundagelicals' own behavior toward those they don't feel are quite Christian enough counts as persecution in the stats they then quote as proof.

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  67. Unless those are Peter Minuets, in which case I have an island I'd like to sell you.

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  68. I certainly would not want to get in front of it. Not without some feathers on a string and maybe a bag of catnip.

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  69. But the main reason is that you can't have someone who believes the earth is 6,000 years old working the science beat . . .

    And these same fundies bitch endlessly about how they're excluded from the sciences, thus proving that the sciences are biased and not to be believed.

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  70. Yet, pointing out atrocities is an insult to all Christians. If they aren't "Christian" crimes, why are the one true Christians getting so bent out of shape by the pointing out of those atrocities?

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  71. Gromet5:38 PM

    I want to ride dinosaurs around the Garden of Eden with this comment and pretend Armageddon is never coming.

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  72. Christopher Hazell5:40 PM

    And isn't it offensive how gays are always acting like they're being persecuted in America, as though being denied a marriage license is just as bad as living in fear of religious murder?

    And isn't it also offensive how American women act like sexist jokes and elevator come-ons are just as bad as things like genital mutilation and being stoned for adultery?

    No, of course it fucking isn't.

    All Dreher is saying is that the existence of severe persecution of a group in a foreign land doesn't somehow make the lesser persecutions or problems in our own back yard acceptable.



    Just like, say, Rebecca Watson's complaints about bad come-ons aren't somehow invalidated or self-indulgent simply because other women than her have faced life-threatening sexism, Dreher's complaints aren't invalidated or self-indulgent simply because other Christians face life-threatening persecution.


    Dreher's complaints are invalid for completely different reasons.


    Chiefly, they're invalid because he can't actually come up with any examples of persecution against Christians in America.


    His only real examples tend to revolve around the fact that non-Christian organizations no longer actively discriminate against certain non-Christians. While a member of the clergy can't be compelled to marry somebody who isn't following their religion, the state still brazenly gives out marriage licenses to many couples who aren't following Christian rules!


    He's also in the double-bind that he has to somehow argue that when a Christian employer/school/church discriminates against non-Christians, it's simply a personal choice which doesn't indicate the presence of a worrying bias; Gays should just accept that some people won't share their own proclivities.


    On the other hand, every example of an employer/school/church "discriminating" against a Christian group (e.g. if a college requires student groups receiving school funds to allow members to be of any religion) is a worrying example of the increasing marginalization and persecution of Christians in America.


    His argument is explicitly that being told not to discriminate is more oppressive than being actively discriminated against, which is a deeply stupid double standard.


    But that has nothing to do with foreign murderers, one way or the other.

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  73. swkellogg5:41 PM

    It only starts with kissing.

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  74. JennOfArk5:42 PM

    Don't be silly, man. Everyone knows Jesus rode a dinosaur.

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  75. Weapons grade stupid and IMAX level projection.

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  76. JennOfArk5:47 PM

    Rod, Rod....it doesn't have to be cheap, brother. When it's open and not furtive and hurried in darkened truck stop bathrooms, it can be a beautiful thing.

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  77. Megalon5:49 PM

    I admit, the image is amusing, and kind of appropriate in a way. Maybe I should have just kept it.

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  78. Obviously they'd rather not talk about it, especially when there's MUSLIMS!

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  79. RogerAiles6:20 PM

    Dreh-Rod thinks gays have the right to complain about discrimination, and that he has the right to give them everything to complain about. With fundies, Dreh-Rod conflates their (his) complaining with proof of discrimination.

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  80. Jesus Chrysler drives a Dodge...

    http://youtu.be/RtZ8NMFhsG0

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  81. They are really jealous of the gay agenda, that's what I think. Ever since gay people have been agitating publicly for marriage,and making the gay life seem so attractive, I think they've been looking at it as a straight up competition and one that the christian right is losing (feels like its losing). They turned on homosexuality as a form of tribalist group formation and then they found out that it was driving out more people than it was attracting. I think they are worried that they are literally losing out to a competitor.

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  82. How does that 46 percent relate to Mitt's 47 percent? How many percents are there in this dagnabbit country?

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  83. My comment would like to hold this comment's coat while it does so.

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  84. Why just last week

    Marguerite Haragan, 58, pressed her foot into the throat of a Jewish woman while saying she'd "better accept Jesus," an Ada County prosecutor said during Haragan's arraignment Thursday.

    Haragan's verbal harassment of the woman - identified in court by her initials, "AG" - had been ongoing, including through phone calls, according to the prosecutor. But on Feb. 5, it reportedly escalated to violence.

    According to the prosecutor, AG reported that Haragan visited her home that day, banged on her front window and yelled that she'd "better believe in Jesus, and that she was not going to leave until she did."

    AG opened the door to take down Haragan's license plate number and ask Haragan to leave, the prosecutor said. Haragan then allegedly slapped AG in the face, pulled her hair, yanked her to the ground and began kicking her in the stomach and thighs. Haragan yelled that AG needed to believe in Jesus to stop the assault, the prosecutor said.

    The prosecutor said Haragan pressed her foot into AG's neck and pulled her hair, causing a neck injury that still pains AG. "Eventually, the victim had to comply" to escape the attack, the prosecutor said.

    Read more here: http://www.idahostatesman.com/2015/02/12/3642246/boise-woman-arrested-on-malicious.html#storylink=cpy

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  85. Next they want their assess danced with. Also: if white elites are anti christian maybe these assholes should be cozying up to black people a bit more?

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  86. Speaking of good Christian fellowship . . .
    http://media.salon.com/2015/02/yylfvzppfah6e069imzz1.jpg

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  87. StringOnAStick6:28 PM

    You called for my services?

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  88. redoubtagain6:30 PM

    I was going to point out the "Convert or die, Jew; your choice" moment in 15th century Spain,

    Oh, you mean the First Crusade.

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  89. redoubtagain6:35 PM

    (I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but BENGHAZI! may also be behind this.)

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  90. calling all toasters6:36 PM

    Well, that's it. I'm going to join ISIS so I can bake cakes for homosexuals and snuff out Christianity. Do the have a course in being an Islamic extremist at the New School? Because I hate to travel.

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  91. JennOfArk6:37 PM

    Life imitates art.

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  92. JennOfArk6:38 PM

    Ugh. It's painful to be reminded that Tom Cotton and Mike Huckabee are not our biggest embarrassments.

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  93. ColBatGuano6:49 PM

    Our Venn diagrams contain multitudes.


    It is just not possible that 46% of the country are evangelical (practicing) christians given that only 40% of folks attend church weekly.

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  94. Also this guy
    http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/44335_Pat_Robertson_Says_Satanic_Covens_Use_Facebook_to_Put_Curses_on_Fetuses

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  95. calling all toasters6:55 PM

    eh-- the difference is minute.

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  96. J Neo Marvin7:14 PM

    A mainstream news column from 2003 kissing right-wing ass? Now that's a rarity.

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  97. 46 percent are practicingchristians, no one ever said they were perfect.

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  98. J Neo Marvin7:21 PM

    Also applies to "Bible-believing Christians". Somehow they seem to feel this is a mark of uniqueness.

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  99. tigrismus7:30 PM

    Gosh, why CAN'T we nice, moral, civilized people murder all these barbarians?

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  100. ADHDJ7:37 PM

    "I'm not purrfect, just furgiven"

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  101. J Neo Marvin7:47 PM

    If I can't dance, I want no part of your persecution!

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  102. Buffalo Rude8:20 PM

    Then why was he hitch hiking?

    http://youtu.be/YHyD7u1P4V8

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  103. smut clyde8:43 PM

    the murder by ISIS of Christians in Egypt

    I assume that you are referring to some sort of Greater Aegypt (which subsumes Libya).

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  104. Of course, killing a few hundred thousand from the air is just loving them softly with our song.

    - The United States Chair Force (notorious god-botherers)
    ~

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  105. smut clyde9:31 PM

    I don't know of anyone who actually says that.


    To begin with, it assumes that someone wants to talk to Dreher.

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  106. AGoodQuestion10:30 PM

    Sweet mother of fuck, does Amnesty International know what Dreher is doing to logic here? A sample offense:

    I would point out that ISIS is throwing gay men out of high windows to their deaths, and the crowds below are finishing off the job with stones. No secular liberal would — nor should — accept the argument that gays in the US have no right to complain against discrimination because they don’t have it as bad as gays in ISIS-held territory.



    Left unsaid here, and in fact actively obscured, is the fact that Christianity isn't just not persecuted at sword's point, but actively promoted as the norm. In large swaths of the country a political candidate has to be a Christian to have a snowball's chance in Hell of winning. In fact despite the presence of a few Jews - mostly representing urban districts - two Muslims, an atheist, and a Buddhist senator (Hawaii, natch), the vast majority of Congress is Christian and couldn't be otherwise. Now if there's anywhere in America where politicians have to prove they're gay, let me know. Seriously. I'm sure their campaign ads would be something to see.

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  107. Oh my God, yes. Let me know where this place is.

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  108. Ever since gay people have been agitating publicly for marriage,and making the gay life seem so attractive, I think they've been looking at it as a straight up competition . . .

    I see what you did there, and I'd like to take it dancing.

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  109. smut clyde10:39 PM

    You can speak American!

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  110. I think that's a bit of a swipe at Catholicism.

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  111. AGoodQuestion10:40 PM

    It's possible that ten minuets could lead Rod to IS. Some of those ballroom dance instructors are hardcore.

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  112. Can I get a witness?

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  113. smut clyde10:41 PM

    That's the feminine equivalent of a Witner (as any fule kno).

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  114. AGoodQuestion10:45 PM

    2. Kristof is a smarmy git.

    That may not actually be a reason.

    I'll accept it as one, with relish.

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  115. Jmaharry10:47 PM

    Theocrats like Dreher and rage-clowns* in general specialize in a kind of
    emotionally-charged intellectual obtuseness. There is, among their formulations, fascinations and persecutions, nearly always something specious and more likely nonsensical, an Achilles heel of self-serving idiocy.


    Like this Dreher post. First, a) How many people in this country "fear and loathe" Christians? And, b), how many of those Jesus-loathers then babble about Christians getting their heads cut oft?


    Answers: a) Very, very, very few, and b) 0.



    *"Rage-clown" cribbed from Alicublog. A nearly perfect portmanteau.

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  116. Jmaharry10:50 PM

    heheheh. yes.

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  117. AGoodQuestion10:55 PM

    Miz Marguerite apparently doesn't know the difference between sincere belief and saying "uncle!"

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  118. AGoodQuestion11:00 PM

    You just inspired Huckles to try harder.

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  119. montag211:23 PM

    This business of persecution is firmly fixed in the Xtian DNA, but, it seems to me that it's gotten much, much worse ever since the evangelicals and the Republicans each saw the other as a means to their individual ends. Both groups seem to treat the mere existence of non-believers as a threat to their very being, which certainly belies undercurrents of eliminationism. Maybe that's why the fuckers are all so fond of the Armageddon of Revelations--it's a God-sanctioned cleansing of all their imagined enemies.


    Eventually, they're gonna find a Presidential candidate that's willing to use nukes.

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  120. realinterrobang11:46 PM

    Maybe yes, maybe no. In my experience, "Bible-believing Christian" is generally fundie-speak for "Biblical literalist." I've met fundies who sincerely believe that Catholics aren't Christians
    (and Catholics who sincerely believe that Protestants aren't
    Christians), so they're probably definitionally excluded.

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  121. realinterrobang11:48 PM

    Does that kind of SWAT team come with really big flyswatters??

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  122. realinterrobang11:58 PM

    Hi, I'd like to throw my hat into the ring as someone who fears and loathes Christians. The nutty funnymentalist ones, at any rate.

    One of my best friends is actually a very religious Christian, but a sane Christian, but most of the rest of Christianity gets the wary side-eye from me until proven not-nutty. When I was in high school, a large family of evangelical funnymentalist Christians moved into the attendance district and proceeded to convert about 90% of the entire school. Imagine a rural high school full of bigoted provincial hicks*...who are all suddenly convinced that Jeebus is the very bestest thing EVAR and they must share him with you at every opportunity and then some, on pain of harassment and/or physical violence, and Murphy help you if you just wanted to be left alone.

    Yeah, that was a lot of years ago now, but still...when Sartre said that Hell is other people, he must have precognitively known about new-convert zealot teenaged hicks. *shudder*

    _________
    * You know some of the dumbass clueless things Justin Bieber has said? I literally for reals went to HS with his aunt. 'Nuff said.

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  123. realinterrobang12:01 AM

    ...and even some of the newcomers. White converts to Islam must make them nucking futs. :D

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  124. Evangelicals consider LDS a cult, so Mormons are outThis may no longer be operative now that Franklin Graham has declared Mitt Romney the candidate that shares Christian values, and fundigelicals crawled over broken glass to vote for him while only a few fringe elements complained. The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association's website was even scrubbed of ol' Billy's past condemnations of the Mormon cult. Franklin tried to walk it back a little bit after Mitt lost, by running some oblique attack on the Book of Mormon, but you'd still be hearing nothing but hosannas had Romney won. Now that people who used to pass around copies of the anti-LDS screed Mama, Mormonism, and Me have so enthusiastically sided with them in the 2012 election and the Proposition 8 campaign, look for the lines to blur further as reactionaries of a feather flock together for mutual support.

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  125. Gabriel Ratchet12:48 AM

    They might want to be martyrs but they'll settle for being crybabies as long as they can pretend that, in their case, at least, it's the same thing.

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  126. mrstilton1:24 AM

    That's true; except that you might be surprised how little familiar with their bibles many fundamentalists are. (They have been conditioned to disgorge a few key, out-of-context money quotes when they hear the bell ring, but that's about it. In much the same way, today's Republican politicians piously endorse the public career of Dr. Martin Luther King, which consisted in its entirety of uttering a single sentence.)

    It might be more accurate to say that a "bible-believing Christian" is one who assents without question to whatever propositions his holy-men tell him the bible requires him to assent to. This seems to consist of:

    No abortion for the sluts;

    No basic human rights for the homos;

    No evolution/no global warming;

    When activist courts prevent us from replacing the constitution with Leviticus, we're being persecuted; and

    ... and, well, that's pretty much it, actually; though if you could get a few drinks into them, they'd probably have something to tell you about those blacks and Mexicans as well.

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  127. No, they just want to be crybabies. If any of these public christianists were ever faced with the prospect of actual tortured martyrdom, really having to suffer torment and death for their faith, they'd change their tune faster than you can say "Allahu akbar."

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  128. We can't even get a fecking Catholic elected president in this country.

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  129. They also get very, very upset at the idea that a marriage model that doesn't depend on strict gender roles might get traction.

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  130. No name green relish. Ridiculously cheap for such an important foodstuff.

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  131. Miss Maudie settled her bridgework. "You know old Mr. Radley was a foot-washing Baptist--"
    "That's what you are ain't it?"
    "My shell's not that hard, child. I'm just a Baptist."
    "Don't you all believe in foot-washing?"
    "We do. At home in the bathtub."

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  132. When activist courts prevent us from replacing the constitution with Leviticus, we're being persecuted . . .

    Certain tiny selected portions of Leviticus. Actually, just a handful of sentences from Leviticus. Well, really just one thing from Leviticus--the part about the homos.

    As for the rest of Leviticus: Sure, it's the direct word of God almighty himself. But who can be bothered with all that dietary stuff, and the personal grooming, and the clothing restrictions, and the thing about having to marry your sister-in-law if your brother dies, and those commandment things about false witness . . . I mean, c'mon! Nobody reads the fine print, right?

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  133. His bitch is that the First Amendment has bumped right up against the requirements of a fucking business license. Rand Paul seems to have the same problem.

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  134. satch8:17 AM

    "...and of course he was just making shit up."

    Ah, yes...

    "Yet it is also the kind of thing that people in this country who fear and loathe Christians point to as an argument-ender when Christians complain about social injustice against themselves, e.g., “Get back to me when they’re chopping Christian heads off, then we’ll talk.”


    Umm, Rod, you wouldn't happen to have a link for that, would ya? Or even a name to go with the accusation? I thought not...

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  135. I'm kinda partial to the Book of Job myself. I wonder how these people would deal with a plague of boils and all their teeth falling out, their children dying and the utter loss of all their treasure, all for no good reason but Satan masturbating?


    And remember: Job didn't know he was going to get it all back.

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  136. I wonder which one of Rick Santorum's kids will take you up on that.

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  137. coozledad8:40 AM

    You'd better copyright that. I've known some fundie cat ladies who'd behead someone for that T-shirt.

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  138. I want to waterboard this comment because in the end I know it will thank me for it.

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  139. satch8:47 AM

    Well, there you have it! Haragan is being dragged into a SECULAR court and persecuted... err... prosecuted for her beliefs! Is there no justice??!!?

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  140. I haven't read Job in a while, but if I remember correctly, it wasn't even Satan jerking off--it was God and Satan making a bet over whether Job's faith was true. And Job didn't get it all back--he had new kids, but his original ones remained dead.

    At any rate, some of the hard-core Christian True Believers might lose their faith if faces with Job's challenges. But I look at all the True Believers I know who are living in trailers and suffering almost as greatly, and that suffering just reinforces their faith. They kind of double-down on the notion that the more they endure here, the greater their reward in Heaven is going to be.

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  141. coozledad8:54 AM

    I only saw the stills from Tom Delay's turn on Dancing With The Stars. That should have been enough to secure a conviction.

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  142. satch9:04 AM

    "Hello, 911... what's your emergengy?"

    "Help, help, they're after me!!"
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYAfQURHROI


    "Now, now... calm down Senator, we'll get someone to your location with bourbon and valium as soon as we can."

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  143. Okay, maybe I was being unnecessarily harsh. You're right We see people all the time--tornado victims, eg.--who suddenly lose everything, including loved ones, and still don't give up their hope for the future or faith in God. Makes you wonder about the basis for the Job story in the first place.


    I shall reconsider my criticism.

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  144. satch9:21 AM

    "...they'll settle for being crybabies as long as they can pretend that, in their case, at least, it's the same thing."


    Everyone wants to be a Saint, but nobody wants to die horribly. And for your information, that's SAINT Crybaby to you!

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  145. satch9:25 AM

    Well, the new kids were better and the new wife was hotter, so...

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  146. Where's Nero when you really need him?

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  147. StringOnAStick10:03 AM

    Agreed on the hypothesis that the anti-gay thing is about culture as much as religion. My main window into that world is my Southern Baptist, Rush-loving, wingnut older sister, and it was in the mid-1980's that she stated with all seriousness one Christmas dinner that "all gays should be lined up and shot". Everyone dove for their wine glasses and tried to pretend that hadn't been said.
    Prior to Rush and the rest of the wingnut media becoming her daily milk and honey, her religious life didn't include shooting anyone who wasn't of her tribe; quite frankly, she wasn't tribal at all. That this change coincides with the ascendance of Moral Majority and the rest of the righty media grifters isn't a coincidence.

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  148. StringOnAStick10:11 AM

    My theory is that the righty media is trying to be the unifying force to all these groups, stirring up enough hate of the Other in order to create a Reich of Reliable Reactionaries, and thus paper over any doctrinal differences in the service of maintaining or growing political/economic/cultural power.

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  149. That's a disturbingly familiar plan, for some reason.

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  150. There's something else wrong with Rod's weird, backhanded, comment about Gays being thrown from windows. Gay people in the US are, in fact, protesting this kind of international homophobic murder. But Christians in the US are not only encouraging it they are literally drafting the legislation for it in Uganda. This has nothing to do with whether gays are or are not also discriminated against in the US. I just thought it was important to point out that atrocities committed over there can and should be protested and the people responsible for committing those atrocities, to the extent that they live here, should also be protested here.

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  151. Howlin Wolfe3:03 PM

    Dancin' with the Dicks?

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  152. That's a really cute picture, and I upvoted it and all, but...


    I've got cats. I can't really believe that any cat could be religious. They'd have to admit there's a higher power than themselves, and I know my cats would never be able to do that.

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  153. StringOnAStick3:56 PM

    Think of the graphic design possibilities! RRvR, not that far from KKK!

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  154. Bloof4:13 PM

    I don't even say "gesundheit" when my cat sneezes for fear it will have the same effect as holy water on a vampire.

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  155. I'm thinking maybe some snazzy belt buckles to underscore the new accord amongst the redefined Real True Christians and to emphasize that the lamestream faiths are excluded: "God's with us."

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  156. Yeah, that was simply nuts.

    It's hard to get an exact number for this, of course - do you mean the membership of evangelical churches, or are you gonna count mainline Methodists who say they're born again? But only around 50% of Americans are Protestants at all - that's not really in dispute, so it gives you ballparks for evangelicals / born-again. 15% - 30% depending on what you count and how you ask.

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  157. And counting "people who say they're born again" is a really shady maneuver for anyone who knows their Bible, because that is a phrase from the New Testament that's open to interpretation. It's perfectly legitimate for a devout Christian of any denomination to say "yeah, I'm born again" as a general statement of belief; there's no universally accepted definition of what that means. So to assume that they must mean it in the same sense that Pat Robertson means it is basically to say that the evangelicals own those words; the survey designer (or at least anyone interpreting the survey in the way Kristof did) is taking a theological position without admitting it.

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  158. mgmonklewis7:37 PM

    Just for kicks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilate_Agno

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  159. mgmonklewis7:41 PM

    Bourbon? I think you mean a Pink Lady, a valium, and a steel-reinforced fainting couch.

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  160. Hey, thanks for the link.

    I've never heard of any of that, and I really enjoyed reading it.

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  161. mgmonklewis7:43 PM

    Christopher Smart was an odd dude, but that part of his poem is magnificent in its joyful strangeness.

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  162. John Wesley Hardin10:28 PM

    It's the sort of thing that a typical anonymous liberal commentator MIGHT say, so it's the same as a real citation.

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  163. mgmonklewis8:07 AM

    Well said.

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  164. timb11710:50 AM

    Well, you know, he sounds like they all sound: straining for the "I'm a white guy in the know who just shakes his head at these cra-cra libtards." His Twitter response was basically along the line of "hey, I lived in Turkey for 2 years, you know I wasn't serious, and you taking my rhetoric and words seriously makes me the victim and you the meanie."

    He does not have a voice for radio, though

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  165. moops2:43 AM

    Ugh, what a tedious time that all was. I think it was desperate Christian Democrats realizing their families were making them choose their tribe. To their fellow Christian travelers "Christian Democrat" was not a valid identifier. They were being told to choose.

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