Libertarians who believe that hiring policies – even discriminatory ones -- fall under the First Amendment’s “freedom of association” provision may end up getting lumped in with the religious right on this one (not that this is a new thing).Poor, put-upon fellows, always getting lumped in with the people they always vote with! Look on the bright side, bros -- maybe this vote shows Paul's getting the courage of his convictions back, and will call for the overturn of the Civil Rights Act. Dare to dream!
Friday, November 08, 2013
...AND WHEN I WOKE UP, I WAS ON THE FUNDAMENTALIST-BIGOT SIDE OF A VOTE TALLY. WHAT ARE THE ODDS?
Erik Loomis notes that True Son of Liberty Rand Paul voted against ENDA. Well of course. For the libertarians, Scott Shackford of Reason:
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If you carry their "logic" to its ultimate extreme, ALL laws are discriminatory because they are designed to place controls on people's behavior. Libertarians want the almighty dollar to dictate the terms.
ReplyDeleteHave I mentioned that Rand Paul is a dead ringer for Gladstone Gander?
ReplyDeletePortrait of Rand Paul discovered in old comic book
ReplyDeleteI had totally forgotten!
ReplyDeletealthough they pretend otherwise.
ReplyDeleteSometimes they don't! They just seem to think that referring to the ideal motivator of human behavior as "the market" rather than "money" sounds less horrible. (It doesn't.)
I do not voluntarily associate with my employer. I associate with them because I need to eat. Our relationship is purely a business one, and regulating business behavior is a far cry from regulating personal behavior. (Not to a libertarian, of course, because corporations are people too and all that.)
ReplyDeleteAlso, the word the First Amendment uses is "assembly" (well, "assemble," if you want to be even more pedantic), not "association." It's a fine but present distinction, since "assembly" in this context is usually understood to mean political assembly, especially when you append "and to petition the government for a redress of grievances" to the end of it. Arguably, the US Bill of Rights contains no guarantee of freedom of association. While I certainly don't think we need legislation forcing white people to have a beer with minorities, legislation forcing white people to get the hell over it (or just quit) if they have to work in the same building as a minority individual seems entirely reasonable.
He sure has a dandy 'doo.
ReplyDelete~
Come on, Roy.
ReplyDeleteYou know that rich people getting tax cuts and deregulation is far more important than trifles like regulating lady parts and the gays.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good!
;-)
Let me guess: they strongly support the right NOT to hire qualified minorities, women, gays, etc, for whatever dumb-ass reason, but long considered "affirmative action" hiring (or admission) policies in order to foster an inclusive culture at a workplace or institution are NOT FAIR.
ReplyDeleteAh, Mr. Edroso, but to VOTE with schmucks is NOT to BE a schmuck. It's the capacity to grasp these fine distinctions that enables a libertarian to sleep at night--that and being a sociopath.
ReplyDeleteErik Loomis notes that True Son of Liberty Rand Paul voted against ENDA
ReplyDeleteLiberty, not for girly boys... or girly girls!!!!
The glibertarian fallacy: Oppression and discrimination, corporate rip-offs and destruction of the public commons is all A-Okay because none of those things is going to happen TO ME!
ReplyDeleteAllow me to extend the wish I wish for Republicans to the libertarians: I wish that every single one of the policies you advocate for become the law of the land. And that you lose all of your money and have to live under those policies as a poor person.
So, did Scott Shackleford have anything substantial to say about ENDA? Half the article was block quotes from the Washington Post and Andrew Sullivan and he block quotes the Cato for his conclusion.
ReplyDeleteGASP! Moocher!
ReplyDeleteIt sure is wonderful libertarians are standing by their principles and defending the right to only hire white straight men. Perhaps if libertarians were 94% white, 68% male and 60% against gay marriage, I'd think it was just barefaced selfishness, but that couldn't possibly be true, could it?
ReplyDeleteWe just aren't manly man enough to handle liberty
ReplyDeleteNow, that Rand Paul is 110% manly man. The extra 10% is that male mustelid that perches on his head.
ReplyDeleteAs Rand Paul wrote, "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice."
ReplyDeleteI'm curious about this name they've chosen for themselves.
ReplyDeleteIn thrall to absolute corporate power and supportive of government
interference in matters of reproductive choice and sexual orientation.
I'm not seeing any liberty there.
The comments are awesome: "Some employers are homophobes and won't knowingly hire anyone
ReplyDeletewho is gay because they think their sexual preferences are
disgusting. This is a reason for individuals to choose not do
business with that employer, rather than a reason to drag
government force into the equation."
They've got a point. If the civil rights movement hadn't gotten lazy and decided to change things with government force, they could have desegregated every lunch counter in America with sit-ins alone!
Is there anything that boy can't write?
ReplyDelete"No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money" -- Rand Paul
ReplyDeleteYou know what I find a bit sad? I've noticed in the past year or so at various blogs and Facebook whatnots, whenever someone posts something even slightly unkind about the Libertarian cult, the half-dozen fedorales don't coming swinging down from the belfry to explain to us all why we don't really "get" libertarianism and even if we did, there's no such thing as "Scotsmen" anyway before collapsing into, in this case, rancid homophobia like they did in days remembered. Seriously, if this thread hits double digits, it will be because of puns, not whiney dudebros completely misunderstanding the Constitution, American politics in general, and debate itself.
ReplyDeleteIt's like the complete ignoring Ron Paul got in the last election just broke their spirit.
"Was my face red!" But whocoodanode?
ReplyDeleteThe exact text:
ReplyDeleteCongress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[1]
Freedom "to assemble and petition..." was in fact inserted in place of the more agressive "instruct"--some people were afraid that if you allowed the people to assemble and instruct their government, not merely petition, that the people might think they had more power than they do to nullify or attack the government or its laws. Freedom of assembly has nothing to do with freedom of association, though i can't speak to later interpretations of the law and penumbras etc...
You sad, bra?
ReplyDeleteIf by "buffalo", you mean "slow, easy targets", then perhaps. Upon reflection, maybe all those dudes are the guys fighting the MRA fight and telling writers of feminist critiques of, say, sexism in gaming that those rape threats aren't near as serious as the scourge of "fake geek girls". They all shop at the same haberdashery, in any event.
ReplyDeleteLibertarians who believe that hiring policies – even discriminatory ones -- fall under the First Amendment’s “freedom of association” provision may end up getting lumped in with the religious right on this one (not that this is a new thing).
ReplyDeleteWell you can cry me a river, cry me a river, I cried a river over you.
A good bartender knows what iced tea is, might even know how to make it. Will certainly know that it is a different animal from Long Island Iced Tea, and that while the latter may afford you a fun evening, you should not drive after having 2-3 of them. But driving after you drink real iced tea is fine.
ReplyDeleteMost libertarians would not make good bartenders.
It's remarkable how so many horrible people are drawn to an ideology which brags about the right of people to be horrible.
ReplyDeleteI would recommend they consider the possibility that relying on the market to create freedom works (at best) with slow cruelty for minorities--for arithmetic reasons that I'd think should be apparent.
Or they could talk more about legalizing weed, but they might want a backup plan for when that actually happens.
Rand Paul just plagiarized his vote from Jesse Helms.
ReplyDeleteConsidering how irritating that argument is ("Well, it's not specifically allowed/denied by the Constitution, so whatever horrible shit some rich asshole wants to do is, regrettably, fine by me"), yeah, lumping the together with another group of gutless assholes doesn't exactly make me feel guilty.
ReplyDeleteBen, have you had a couple of those this evening?
ReplyDeleteI seem to recall some of them saying pretty much that not long ago. Somebody search the archives!
ReplyDeleteNot really my drink, actually. I like Collinses and mojitos in the summer, White Russians in the cooler months. Coffee or cocoa with Cointreau is a rare treat.
ReplyDeleteEven worse than the ignoring of Ron Paul was the scrutinizing of Ron Paul, and the revelation to his younger adherents that the guy was an unrepentant racist.
ReplyDeleteI do not voluntarily associate with my employer. I associate with them because I need to eat.
ReplyDeleteYeah, this, pretty much. The freedom to prevent somebody from earning a living is maybe something that should be a bit more carefully considered.
The Libertarian solution to comprehensive discrimination often seems to amount to "Eh, it'll work itself out somehow." which I just don't find to be convincing at all.
Well, they did tell us to "Google Ron Paul". Didn't realize I was supposed not Google that. Or not find it offensive, one.
ReplyDeleteI'm probably late to the party with this observation, and no doubt it has been made by others in other places, but I haven't seen it yet....anyhoo, I was pondering today the delicious irony of Rand Paul's serial plagiarism, in that it perfectly reflects Libertarian ideology: the plagiarist takes from those who have actually worked to produce something original and claims it as his own without properly compensating the parasite who produced it. Thus, Rand Paul fulfills his destiny as a Galtian "great man" by stealing the labor of others and denying their role in producing that which he claims as his own.
ReplyDeleteI mean, really, we should have seen this coming.
Although with the caveat that I think libertarians give sociopaths a bad name. Even sociopaths understand the rule of 'don't be an asshole', even if they are blind to the edges of the road.
ReplyDeleteWell, you can Google him, but actually clicking the links is statism.
ReplyDeleteI imagine they're named after the liberating feeling of being able to blame systemic poverty and discrimination on the victims. It's like a breathmint for your brain!
ReplyDeleteShackford quotes Walter Olson at Cato, fer godsake, and it's worth repeating because it could almost be the New Glibertarian Manifesto:
ReplyDelete[A]t some point we do need to stop adding new groups to the parade—either that, or see freedom of association turn into a presumption of something else. At what point do we say no to future demands that protected-group status be accorded to employees based on political and controversial systems of belief, physical appearance (the “looksism” issue), family responsibilities, résumé gaps because of unemployment or other reasons, or use of lawful products or engagement in lawful activities in off hours—to name just a few of the areas that in fact have been the subject of real-world agitation in recent years? If we say yes to all, we introduce a new presumption—familiar from the prevailing labor law in parts of Europe—that no employer should be free to terminate or take other “adverse action” against an employee without being prepared to show good cause to a judge. That is exactly the goal of some thinkers on the Left, but it should appall believers in a free economy.
That’s reason enough to oppose ENDA, as I see it.
Shorter Koch-funded Olson: Who says we need to believe in what we say we believe in? Just say NO!
They're all in favor of "freedom of association" as long as the association isn't a union. It's always about power, and the power of they who own over them who don't is the only thing worth protecting. As far as Libertarians are concerned, this is written into the Constitution, where employees (and consumers for that matter) aren't even zero fifths of a person.
ReplyDeleteHey! Don't be insulting weasels like that!
ReplyDeleteAnd, of course, the subsequent whining about how the real problem here is the people pointing out the plagiarism.
ReplyDeleteIt's always been a source of amusement that Rand's entire career is built on complete crap--like starting his own ophthalmic licensing board because he couldn't pass the real one. They guy's a fraud--and a dangerous one, to boot--and yet has managed to build a political career atop the pile of glass eyes that is his medical career.
Paul puts the Aryan in Libertarian.
ReplyDeleteFred "Foghorn Leghorn" Thompson tried selling the reverse mortgages, Fonzie is trying to sell the reverse mortgages, and one day, Ron Paul will also try selling the reverse mortgages.
ReplyDelete(Not to a libertarian, of course, because corporations are people too and all that.)
ReplyDeleteAs a kid I liked to read through my dad's Reason newsletters. One topic I remember was a search for new pronouns, similar to how some feminists have embraced odd gender-neutral ones such as "ze". The Libertarians, however, wanted pronouns that did not assume human or animal existence. Instead of "he" or "she", they suggested "e" as a sort of ur-pronoun that assumed neither gender nor humanity.
At the time, I was fascinated by the science-fictional overtones of "e". I imagined conversations with intelligent robots, or aliens, using this new language that was being mapped out, a language of the future! It wasn't until years later that I realized: while the science fictional
As a trained anthropologist, do you know if the Alicuratti use every part of the animal?
ReplyDeleteWhich, really, comes back to my previous statement that these clodpates advocate for such horrible policies because they really and truly believe that they, personally, will never be subjected to those policies. Only "those other people" will ever suffer--and probably rightly so for having "controversial systems of belief" such as being black, or being female and refusing the boss's sexual predations.
ReplyDeleteEverything and especially the squeal.
ReplyDeleteEven more deliciously, of course, Rand Paul was in turn plagiarized by some littler Republican fishtoid farther down the political food chain who figured it would be easier to pirate Rand Paul's website than to construct or write his own platform.
ReplyDeleteThe thing that this makes me think is what is Rand Paul's approach to authenticity? Would it be ok with libertarian Rand Paul if I set myself up as a fake, mirror site, Rand Paul with a clickable link so people could give me money as though I were Rand Paul and just copied his entire site? Absent government intervention and law, trademark and fraud, what is wrong with my profiting off Rand Paul's name and identity? I could even legally change my name to Rand Paul, if that would make it better. Or incorporate as "Rand Paul."
I like to think that his calling in the baby blue helmets to get his URL back had something to do with it, too.
ReplyDeleteIndeed, when I hear Libertarians say the word "choose," I reach for my gun-grabbing statist totalitarianism.
ReplyDeleteIt goes beyond that. Your True Believer Libertarian will tell you that Jim Crow only existed in the first place because the government forced those lunch counters to refuse to serve black people.
ReplyDeleteIf you imagine yourself to be a non-handicapped single childless white male between the ages of eighteen and forty, with easily portable skills and the resources to relocate yourself anywhere within the USA, then yeah: workplace discrimination will work itself out somehow. This exercise will also help you realize why a libertarian candidate getting 6% of the vote while running against a virus in a suit and a chunk of walking offal is considered a triumph.
ReplyDeleteThe squeal is--and I am so not joking here--magically delicious.
ReplyDeleteLibertarian ideology: the plagiarist takes from those who have actually worked to produce something original and claims it as his own without properly compensating the parasite who produced it.
ReplyDeleteKinda like Rand took Atlas Shrugged from Li'l Orphan Annie...
You're right, it's a potentially interesting topic when it's not being shoved into a libertarian frame. In Hyperion by Dan Simmons, I recall that people in formal contexts were referred to as M. [Name] or A. [Name], the distinction being whether they were human or an android. I believe they were used as gender-neutral.
ReplyDeleteBut yes, the idea that we need to modify our language to facilitate the portrayal of corporations as people in the same sense as human individuals is mostly just really fucking goofy. I don't know how libertarians take themselves seriously sometimes.
The freedom to prevent somebody from earning a living is maybe something that should be a bit more carefully considered.
ReplyDeleteOh come on, there's no possible way this could be used to systematically impoverish entire groups of people. *ignores the entire history of capitalism*
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
ReplyDeleteA stately IPO decree
Come now, I think it's fairly obvious that Ron Paul didn't write those newsletters. And furthermore that this entirely absolves him of anything written therein, in much the same way that Stalin was such a peace-loving guy - 'cause I mean, really, how many people did he kill with his own two hands?
ReplyDeleteIf the government had agreed from the start not to use their force in defense of either side of that fight, the sit-ins might have been enough. But that's a fact that libertarians like to ignore.
ReplyDeleteNo man is an island,
ReplyDeleteEntire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
I'm pretty sure the rat bastard won't claim to have written that ;-)
I dunno. I think the whole "Freedom of association" thing is a crock. You can assemble with people you don't necessarily like, and associate yourself with people not physically near you. Besides which, the amendment is meant to bar the G from telling you you can't assemble--as in physically meeting, marching, demonstrating, there being no interweb thingy back then--and had fuck-all to do with who hired whom. But then "crock" is a handy shorter for most things Libertarian...
ReplyDeleteAnd no man except the blockiest of blockheads wrote his own texts when he could lift it entirely of the Internet.
ReplyDeleteI'm Tiny Hermaphrodite, Esq. and I approve your choice of cocktails.
ReplyDeleteWho in turn plagiarized it from Strom Thurmond. It's an heirloom, really.
ReplyDeleteI wonder, too, at the Xian leanings of some Libertarians. Patriarchal authoritarianism is pretty much the hallmark of most religions, and Xianity plays second banana to none in that regard. How you square that with Freedom!!, I don't quite get.
ReplyDeleteThe extra 10% is that male mustelid that perches on his head.
ReplyDeleteWhatever it is it is probably responsible for Rand Paul being one of the dumbest pols in D.C.
I know some old-school Libertarians, and they're hanging their heads in shame lately. When their philosophy was employed merely to fuck over the poor, they were happy, but they recognize that racists and homophobes have solidly claimed their mantle, and they wish to inform you that This Is Not What They Had In Mind.
ReplyDeleteO, ctrl can you c?
ReplyDeleteOh well, the Ron Paul revolution is like Saturn, it eats its own children.
ReplyDeleteNah. Like all Libertarians, Rand Paul is entirely his own creation, a self-made man. He, and he alone, is responsible for being as dumb as he is.
ReplyDeleteYou'll never get it if you keep on trying to judge libertarian idea on the basis of your experience of reality. Libertarianism only can be judged against movies and TV shows, those already made, and those yet to come.
ReplyDeleteFrauds need representation, too.
ReplyDeleteI'm getting pretty goddam chopfallen over this. Does everybody in the world except me immediately know the sexual orientation of everyone they meet? Am I the only one who doesn't know? And furthermore, doesn't want to?
ReplyDeleteIt's like I've missed some essential process in growing up!
When sociopaths are assholes, it's a symptom of their pathology. When libertarians are assholes, it's a modus vivendi. They're making a Statement.
ReplyDeleteGood point. And since son Rand didn't write those speeches, he's absolved from what was said in them. Ghost writers should charge more for this feature.
ReplyDeletefamily responsibilities
ReplyDeleteForget ENDA, boy are they going to be pissed about that newfangled "FMLA" thing.
"you could fire them for having a "controversial system of belief"
ReplyDeleteOr, better, fire them for being gay despite their being strenuously and vociferously heterosexual.
After all, if you can fire someone for being gay, you can fire someone because you *think* they're gay.
I want to polish this comment's jackboots.
ReplyDeleteno employer should be free to terminate or take other “adverse action”
ReplyDeleteagainst an employee without being prepared to show good cause to a
judge.
Horrors! This nightmare world probably wouldn't allow landlords to kick people out for no cause either!
"Orwellians" gave the game away too easily.
ReplyDeleteThe freedom to be a discriminatory bigot shall not be abridged.
ReplyDeleteI always refer to him as Krugerrand: the representative of gold-based white supremacy.
ReplyDeleteLess and less a joke--I wonder how many self-described libertarians today know that their philosophy was created out of whole cloth to serve the interests of the corporate wealthy not all that long ago.
ReplyDeleteAnd that Ayn Rand just ended up being the Leni Riefenstahl of a corporate propaganda campaign designed to attract narcissistic assholes.
From each according to their talent, to one according to his greed
ReplyDeleteMy goodness - he even plagiarized his appearance!
ReplyDeleteWindows would be too difficult for him - Besides being the imperious bastard he uis it would be Cmd -C :)
ReplyDeleteThat's not very fair to poor old Eric Blair, who lived (and died) a decent democratic socialist. Mind you he had got down and out in the correct places.
ReplyDeleteAt what point do we say no to future demands that protected-group status be accorded to employees based on political and controversial systems of belief, physical appearance (the “looksism” issue), family responsibilities, résumé gaps because of unemployment or other reasons, or use of lawful products or engagement in lawful activities in off hours—to name just a few of the areas that in fact have been the subject of real-world agitation in recent years?
ReplyDeleteAlthough they're reluctant to admit it, most libertarians know exactly when to cut off "protected-group status"--when they're covered. It's I'm-all-right-Jackism at its finest.
Great idea! If you'll excuse me, I, uh, got things to do.
ReplyDeleteOuch
ReplyDeletesorry, had to wipe the tears from my eyes
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