We are all scientistsand uses a cute, familiar routine to demonstrate this ("If you’ve ever gone through a thought process like that in dealing with a life situation, congratulations! You are a scientist"). But Simberg isn't really trying to make his readers appreciate the scientific method: He's mainly running a new angle on the traditional conservative argument that scientists who see a trend toward climate change that should be addressed are all just lying for liberalism.
Simberg says a sentence (!) in a USA Today story about some environmental official who tweeted a climate skeptic message "would seem to imply that only 'scientists' (however the reporter defines it) are allowed to be skeptical about scientific theories" -- though the story implies no such thing. Taking off from this overwrought imputation of censorship, he really starts working the dry ice machine and thunder sheets:
When we are not allowed to discuss issues that involve policy actions that could have devastating effects on the world’s economy because we are not part of an apparently credentialed priesthood, we are not being allowed to even debate science, let alone deny it. We are instead apparently apostates in a new non-theistic, but very powerful religion, complete with believers, heretics, sin and indulgences, who must be silenced.Many, many climate skeptics publish in the popular press, and in fact one of our two major parties has gone total climate-change denialist, despite the embargo of the liberal-fascist scientists. Yet Simberg concludes:
Which simply shows that sometimes, just as war is too important to be left to the generals, science can be too important to be left to the “scientists.”Elsewhere in the same venue Frank J. Fleming, an alleged humorist (Jonah Goldberg is a fan, which tells all), headlines
There Are No Such Things as 'Scientists'The ensuing article is more or less the same as Simberg's except with something resembling jokes. It begins with a similar exercise to Simberg's ("Find a book. Hold it over the floor. Now release it. Write down what you observe. Boom! You’ve just become a scientist") and proceeds to the conclusion that you can't trust guys who snootily insist they're using empirical data to form rational conclusions about the physical universe:
Now all of this isn’t meant to belittle science, which is a great process by which we discover facts about the world around us; you should probably make use of it yourself. This is, though, meant to belittle scientists, who are just people, and if you’ve ever been around people, you know they’re easily biased and prone to arrogance and error, and thus everything they say should be taken with a grain of salt.These articles demonstrate how far conservative thought has come on this subject. It's not just promoting the idea that a cadre of whitecoats is trying to destroy America with false, liberal information, perversely ignoring the far greater bribes oil and gas companies can offer them. It further suggests that any time some guy with a sheepskin tries to tell you what's what, you should mistrust him as a matter of course, because he's no more likely than any other snake-oil salesman to be telling the truth. Why should he? They only spend years in school so they can collect Obamabribes and sneer at good folk like you 'n' me. Once upon a time, when they were taking us to the moon and inventing boner pills, scientists could be trusted; but now that most of them have come to conclusions that are injurious to Republican campaign donors' interests, they're just another bunch of moochers.
And they wonder why kids aren't taking STEM classes.
I blame creationism.
ReplyDeleteWhen you take the Kochs' shilling, you do the Kochs' shilling, continued. . .
ReplyDeleteI want you to do something right now. Find a book. Hold it over the floor. Now release it. Write down what you observe.
"African or European?"
Nice Alley Cats reference.
ReplyDeleteI really need to buy a DVD of Urgh: A Music War.
These people are nothing but misanthropes. They dislike and distrust everyone. That is why the shibboleths are so important: hate the gays, hate the abortions, hate the blahs....it is a fraternity of necessity, since they can't stand anyone else.
ReplyDeleteWhen we are not allowed to discuss issues that involve policy actions
ReplyDeletethat could have devastating effects on the world’s economy because we
are not part of an apparently credentialed priesthood, we are not being
allowed to even debate science, let alone deny it.
It's not a credentialed priesthood handing edicts from on-high, it's a cadre of highly-trained, hard-working professionals busting their asses to obtain data, and to test that data in a controlled fashion in an attempt to weed out inaccurate results. There's no such thing as "heresy", because there's no "scripture"- anyone discovering a replicable result that overturns the conventional wisdom is a pioneer, not an apostate.
Once again, the authoritarian right projects its own failings on others.
"Find a book. Hold it over the floor. Now release it. Write down what you observe. Boom! You’ve just become a scientist"
ReplyDeleteFind a point. Hold it over the conflicting evidence provided by your opponents. Now release it to the press. Write down what you opine. Boom! You’ve just become a rightblogger.
A lot of times, conservatives present this dispute as though it should be handled democratically - that we should vote on what's true. This is kind of what Simberg is getting at with that "devastating effect on the world's economy" line (same thing they said about phasing out CFCs back in the 70s, incidentally). It's sort of a greater good argument - not that this research is faulty (although I'm sure he believes that), but that it should be set aside for the good of the world.
ReplyDeleteOn top of this, all those thousands of scientists supporting human influenced climate change are so dedicated to "the cause" that not one of them has blown the whistle on the rest, exposing their slavish adherence to liberal ideology while wallowing the trough of government largess.
ReplyDeleteThis just in: bad-faith arguments not tolerated ad infinitum. Help, help, we're being oppressed!
ReplyDeleteFind a book. Hold it over the floor. Now release it. Write down what you observe. Boom! You’ve just become a scientist!
ReplyDeleteTake your thumb. Stick it up your ass. Now write down what you observe. Boom! You've just become a proctologist!
Makes the same amount of sense. (Or maybe you've just become an NRO columnist.)
Some have tried. We have ...ways of dealing with them.
ReplyDeleteThis is, though, meant to belittle scientists, who are just people, and if you’ve ever been around people, you know they’re easily biased and prone to arrogance and error, and thus everything they say should be taken with a grain of salt.
ReplyDeleteYeah, these "scientists" are all herpty-derp, VOILA, straw turned into gold, suckas!
Also, as it should go without saying, "scientists" are just people and they are prone to all of those things which is why they have to publish their findings and others try and probe those findings for weaknesses or, conversely confirm them by experimentation. When you throw out the scientific method altogether it's SOOOO easy to refudiate this bullshit "science" -- they are just like conservative philosophers, just making shit up because ego, duh.
What these guys don't seem to get is that the scientific method exists to place a healthy distance between the man and the data. Without that distance, without that ability for others to observe what's going on and test it themselves, human nature mucks things up. We've long known that people are excellent at spotting patterns but lousy at distinguishing true patterns from imagined ones. That's why we do things the way we do.
ReplyDeleteThere's actually a very thin line between science and superstition, but it's usually pretty easy to spot. If I flip my lucky quarter to adjudicate every hard decision, and it always turns out right, then that is observing the world around me to reach a conclusion, but it's clearly not science. The problem is that as the observations grow larger, the means of study become increasingly abstract, so it's easier to go by "real world" gut reactions. "Brr, it's cold! Global warming is a lie!" feels like a scientific observation, but when you consider it in light of the scope of the entire planet, it has no more validity than my "experiments" with coin flipping.
Of course, I'm biased myself, since I find the arguments from climate change "skeptics" to be amazingly silly. I once saw one of these guys post a story about snowfall in a very arid region and announce that this proved that global warming was a lie. My only response to that was "So it snowed in the desert for the first time in recorded history, and that proves that everything is normal to you?"
When we are not allowed to discuss issues ... we are not being
ReplyDeleteallowed to even debate science, let alone deny it
So these articles are just a dream I had? I only ask because usually my dreams make more sense than this.
"Let us set aside for the moment whether Mr. Baugues is a scientist or not (he reportedly has an engineering degree, which requires knowledge of advanced mathematics, and understanding the fundamentals of physics and chemistry)"
ReplyDeleteThere's a metric fuckton difference between the training and background of an engineer (or a medical doctor) and of a scientist. In one case, you're being trained to take existing frameworks of knowledge and do something useful with them. In the other, you're being trained to take those frameworks and extend them (which might or might not lead to something which an engineer can do something useful with). It leads to a very different worldview.
In general, the phrase "I'm an engineer, therefore I understand science" is often a red flag for things like denial of evolution and (as here) climate-change denial. (Conversely, the phrase "I'm a scientist, therefore I understand engineering" is frequently associated with devices or constructs that fail in hilariously spectacular fashion.
if you’ve ever been around people, you know they’re easily biased and
ReplyDeleteprone to arrogance and error, and thus everything they say should be
taken with a grain of salt.
But if I apply the grain-of-salt standard to his article, he's all "nobody let's me debate!"
We are all scientists
ReplyDeleteNo, Rand, I'm a scientist; you're a psychopathic reactionary dumbshit who lies for money.
Now all of this isn’t meant to belittle science, which is a great
process by which we discover facts about the world around us; you should
probably make use of it yourself.
Quite so, quite so, Frank. Your readership should indeed start paying attention to facts and reality for a change.
This is, though, meant to belittle scientists, who are just people, and
if you’ve ever been around people, you know they’re easily biased and
prone to arrogance and error, ...
Well, there's certainly truth to that, though it shouldn't necessarily be 'belittling' to point that out. Also, "easily biased and prone to arrogance and error" isn't exactly evenly distributed in the population, if you know what I mean, Frank. Mote, meet beam.
... and thus everything they say should be
taken with a grain of salt.
Everything, eh? Including anything they say in their area of scientific expertise, even if obtained via "a great
process by which we discover facts about the world around us"? Your intention not to belittle science has apparently foundered on your desire to brand all trained practitioners thereof as Lysenkoists. Ordinarily, I'd be disappointed, but I started with the presumption that everyone at PJ Media is easily biased and prone to ignorance and error, and thus take everything you write with a grain of salt.
The entire "grain of salt" theory on healthy skepticism turns into severe hypernatremia when having to negotiate the ultra bad faith of the conservative experiment.
ReplyDeleteIt's instructive that these people see scientists as enemies to be overcome instead of potential allies to be won over.
ReplyDeleteTake a knife. Use it to de-bone a turkey. Now print out a certificate. Boom! You've just become a brain surgeon, if only the meddling government would allow you to practice.
ReplyDeleteIt's true that experts are just people, and that they make mistakes. It's not true that lay people's opinions are as likely to be right on issues inside the expert's field of expertise. When this joker's life is on the line, he probably recognizes it too. I mean, he probably doesn't want me flying the plane after the pilot has a heart attack.
AGAIN with the "we are not allowed." Don't they ever get tired of acting like puling teenagers? I'd like to see someone--Tyson, Nye, maybe gentle old Freeman Dyson--write an Op-Ed that confirms their worst you-never-let-us-do-anything fears. That is, really troll the morons like Dr. Evil shutting up his mouthy son in Austen Powers I:"Ut!" "Yeah, but--" "UT UT!" Etc.
ReplyDeleteChrist almighty. The creationists have figured it out: find a bunch of young people willing to lie for Jesus for the eight years it takes to get a biology doctorate from some tier-3 school, and then claim you have your own scientists who are skeptical of this whole evolution business. If you're so convinced global warming's just a big scam and scientists are all phonies, why not prove it by getting a PhD in meteorology from Cardinal Direction State?
ReplyDeleteIt's all of a piece with the conservative war on knowledge. They'd derided expertise for decades now, and I'm convinced it's because Colbert's observation that "reality has a liberal bias" is all too true.
ReplyDeleteI get a surprising number of Master's and Ph.D theses from religious schools (I edit theses for a living). Most of them are so poorly reasoned and written, it's a wonder the schools in question have any credentials at all--even the Rand-Paul made-up variety.
ReplyDeleteShit like this makes me wish Zubaz made tweed American flag sportcoats, so I could put one on and start yelling, "American Pragmatism! Fuck yeah!" and hitting dudes in the groin with a copy of Charles Sanders Peirce essays.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing worse than some stoned freshman going on about "yeah, but what if science is, like, wrong about everything, man?" is a fully sober grownup doing the same... Too bad, because John Dewey would make a much more interesting ideological boogeyman than Saul Alinksy if these dumbasses were a bit more hip.
Take your thumb. Stick it up your ass. Now write down what you observe. Boom! You've just become a proctologist! Frank J. Fleming!
ReplyDeleteJust trying to understand this: climate scientists who have painstakingly assempbed models that have accurately predicted global temperature rise over the past three decades are prone to erro and their pronouncements should be taken with a grain of salt, but free-market freshwater economists who put forth cocktail-napkin theories that have consistently failed to reflect reality should be making policy?
ReplyDeleteMaybe at the BS level, but PhD engineers are scientists. The problems are more applied, but the standards of evidence, the methods of inquiry, etc are the same. Usually the distinction is made between "practicing engineers" and "researchers." Good practicing engineers lean pretty heavily on research, but I've met plenty of bad ones who learned some rules once and aren't really willing to think about why they're true or when they could be false. These are the second scariest technical people I've ever interacted with. (The scariest are the autodidacts who not only are resistant to other ideas, but never had the benefit of a complete formal training at the start.)
ReplyDeleteThese guys, along with the anti-evolution crowd, should only be given chicken-fat poultices for tubercular gummas, drink raw milk, read by candlelight, and be forbidden distilled beverages.
ReplyDeleteOr have their brains scattered across the desert.
You know who else refused to believe everything Rand Simberg says?
ReplyDeleteThat's right...Hitler.
~
I'll drink to that!
ReplyDelete~
Oh yeah, certainly, some engineers are scientist, just like some MDs are scientists. But knowledge of the science, without training and experience in how to do science, does not a scientist make.
ReplyDeleteYeah, these sort of things always get me. I mean, we live in a complex technical civilization. It's clear that it takes smart people to make most of the things in our life go. If science is "wrong" so much, why does it work? You don't get e.g. a good airplane without some understanding of aerodynamics. And it's not like it's easy or obvious.
ReplyDeleteThose cocktail napkin theories have made money for the people that count, thus Bob's your uncle.
ReplyDelete~
(Does not apply to Jonah, as experience has shown he clearly cannot find his ass with both thumbs.)
ReplyDeleteThat's a fair point about engineering PhDs, though the bulk of the people trained as engineers stop at the BS or MS level.
ReplyDeleteThat's true, but PhDs are also very domain-specific. It's really easy to let yourself fall into the mindset of "well, I have a PhD in this little niche of science, so I'm qualified to speak on anything else". Good researchers know when to demur on issuing statements on areas outside their expertise, while bad researchers use their credential as a cudgel.
ReplyDeleteMy heart goes out to the NRO intern assigned to Jonah's-ass-finding duty.
ReplyDeleteYeah, its like some kind of bizarro world syllogism:
ReplyDeleteIf Scientists are just like ordinary people and can make mistakes then
Ordinary people are just like scientists and can be right about important topics!
QED or as we ordinary people like to say "Give me my fuckin' science degree already."
First they bought science with junk science, and now they accuse all scientists of being bought.
ReplyDeleteIt's the ones that stop at a degree from NC State who are poised to do the most damage.
ReplyDeleteIt's the whiskers that gave it away, isn't it?
ReplyDeleteWe all respect your struggle.
ReplyDelete~
Frank J. Fleming: "There are no such things as 'scientists'."
ReplyDeleteMichel Foucault: "Awesome!"
You know, I just knew the whole "citizen journalist" thing would lead to no good. Modern Conservatism: we ain't got to learn shit!
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's like them "not being allowed" to use the n-word.
ReplyDeleteRand Simburg, eh? Is he related to Megan ArgleGargleBargle? "No one, even scientists, can ever really know anything.
ReplyDeleteHuh. Tell that to the astronauts who visited the Moon. Or jet pilots.
Never heard of "Scientific Method", has he, or maybe he just didn't get it.
ReplyDeleteYay! I learned a new word!
ReplyDelete10 scoops of "LIKE".
ReplyDeleteWe are instead apparently apostates in a new non-theistic, but very powerful religion, complete with believers, heretics, sin and indulgences, who must be silenced.
ReplyDeleteNo, you're actually more akin to Flat Earthers, continuing to insist on your peculiar worldview despite scientific consensus and several mountains of accumulated evidence that contradicts that worldview.
See, facts don't require you to believe in them in order to be, well, factual. People don't think of you as guilty of apostasy so much as indulging in willful (and ultimately suicidal) ignorance.
Scientists, despite the peer review process, are easily biased and prone to arrogance and error, but not, apparently Frank J. Fleming.
ReplyDeleteLet's be blunt: most of us docs are broadly-trained technicians. We could do our jobs very well if we never had an original thought in our lives. By the same token, if I break my arm, I'm not going to visit a bioengineering researcher, in much the same way that I don't bring my bike to an aerospace engineer for a tune-up.
ReplyDeleteTempted to replace "thumb" with "head".
ReplyDeleteWell, you can't blame them; they watched banks being bought with junk bonds...
ReplyDeleteThe NRO columnist takes the extra step of showing his shitty finger off and making sure everyone else gets a whiff.
ReplyDeleteThey're thinking of science as it's conducted at places like the Cato Institute and Heritage Foundation, where facts are fluffed up like little pillows to couch their already preordained conclusions.
ReplyDeleteWhen we are not allowed to discuss issues
ReplyDeleteWow, with a strawman that big, I hope his smoke detector batteries are charged.
Ever made a rhyme? Boom! You're a poet.
ReplyDeleteEver doodled? Boom! You're an artist.
Ever had an argument? Boom! You're a lawyer.
Ever played World of Warcraft? Boom! You're a soldier.
Who knew that being a Renaissance man was so easy?
Of course, the MBA never stops with the BS.
ReplyDeleteThat's because they've found the scientists can't be "won over" to complete bullshit. Facts are, indeed, stubborn things--and liberal, besides!
ReplyDeleteI blame post-modernism. Deconstructionism too.
ReplyDeleteLouie has something to say:
ReplyDeletehttp://youtu.be/rXcWeFn-YYM
Clocks are big, machines are heavy!
ReplyDeleteAssumes facts not in evidence! "Apostacy" would require an initial adherence to the ideals of truth and reality-based discussion.
ReplyDeleteConversely, the phrase "I'm a scientist, therefore I understand
ReplyDeleteengineering" is frequently associated with devices or constructs that
fail in hilariously spectacular fashion.
Hence the Pauli effect.
Didn't Rand Simburg used to play ball for the Cubs?
ReplyDeleteHe knows not his hole from an ass on the ground.
ReplyDeleteAlso applies to many senior-faculty experimentalists. I once asked a grad student to imagine walking into his lab and seeing his advisor leaning over the optics table adjusting a mirror. The look of existential dread on the student's face was classic.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. It's a set of skills, and a very important one, but not the same set of skills as analyzing claims about the natural world.
ReplyDeleteI'm beginning to think that the old "standing athwart history and demanding 'Stop!'" chestnut has really gone to their heads. Now they not only want to stop science, progress, rules of evidence and common sense, they want them to go backwards, and at ever-accelerating rates.
ReplyDeleteWhen I read recently that the NSF found in a survey that 25% of Americans still believe the sun revolves around the earth or weren't sure, my first thought was, "there's that same percentage again." Which seems to make sense, because, face it, conservatives elect more than their share of amazingly dimwitted people to public office, and those people are probably smarter than their constituents (which is how they prove their suitability for office).
And, after putting all these dimwits into office, the dimwits want to "reform" education. The problem isn't the school systems--by and large, they actually educate students (except, perhaps, for those schools endowed by certain billionaires). It's the re-education given by conservatives after graduation that turns normal minds to mush.
I hate to say it, but the race is on. Will we descend into a new Dark Ages before we become a third-world banana republic? I don't know. But, I'm hiding books, just in case.
The conservative credo:
ReplyDeleteScience = wheresoever my feelings of inadequacy may take me
Policy proposals = wheresoever my feelings of inadequacy may take me
Religion = wheresoever my feelings of inadequacy may take me
..because liberals are too emotional and illogical!
You do know its dark in there, don' t you? If that's your advice you really also need to add that proctologists should wear those little mining lamps.
ReplyDeleteOr, famously since its Jonah, his asses with his thumb.
ReplyDeleteAs for why my sorry a** isn't in the kill zone, lots of people think this is a searingly pertinent question. No answer I could give -- I'm 35 years old, my family couldn't afford the lost income, I have a baby daughter, my a** is, er, sorry, are a few -- ever seem to suffice.
The ones designed by Humphry Davy will set your ass on fire. And he was a scientist.
ReplyDeleteShows what those stupid bastards know.
Don't tempt him to come back.
ReplyDeleteBrawndo's got electrolytes!
ReplyDeleteJust curious, who else has been watching Cosmos? I'm enjoying it even though some of the spaceship stuff seems a little cheesy. Neil Tyson (and/or the writers) seem to be making an effort to troll the rightwingers in every episode. Not hard to do with a group that gets trolled, daily, by reality, but still, it's fun, and Tyson seems to be enjoying it.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad it's on, because there's more of a problem in this country with adults being scientifically illiterate than there is with the schools.
No Charlie tonight? I thought he'd be at his environmentalist best with a topic like this.
ReplyDeleteIt's all of a piece with the conservative war on knowledge
ReplyDeleteThis. Authoritarianism must trump that mamby-pamby science stuff.
because liberals are too emotional and illogical!
ReplyDeleteNow you're just trolling the "Science-proves-us-right!" Murray-fluffing white-supremacist plonkers. Not to mention the "Science-proves-us-right!" MRAs.
"Biggie Smalls. Biggie Smalls. Biggie Smalls"
ReplyDeleteMuch of this goes back to the Reagan administration and the whole Star Wars program of welfare for the aerospace industry. A lot of "promising research initiative" were cheerfully faked.
ReplyDelete"It further suggests that any time some guy with a sheepskin tries to tell you what's what, you should mistrust him as a matter of course"
ReplyDeleteWell unless he's a social scientist who's done a survey that can be used to attack gay marriage, in which case he writes op-eds and goes on talk shows as an eminent authority.
Just 'cause you beat me by six hrs., don't think that you, blah blah blah ...
ReplyDeleteI've been watching. Uh, recording. Three episodes on the DVR right now.
ReplyDeleteOnce again, Conservatives don't like the facts, so they wish, wheedle and whine them away.
ReplyDeleteAnd they claim to be the "adults".
.
I want to do some case studies with this comment, then find it a cozy sinecure in upper management.
ReplyDeletepolicy actions that could have devastating effects on the world’s economy are to be ignored should they interfere w/ profit.
ReplyDeleteEvidence observed is better than evidence merely palpated.
ReplyDeleteThat's just how he'd swing, too.
ReplyDeleteEver doodled? Boom! You're an artist.
ReplyDeleteDoes CheezDoodling count? 'Cause that'd make Jonah the second coming of Picasso.
Guilty myself, then.
ReplyDeleteI clicked the link. It's a whole industry over there.
ReplyDelete"We are not allowed to say [the very thing they then go on to say]" is such a pathetic, self-disproving whinge.
ReplyDeleteWhat they mean is "we are not allowed to say [some ridiculous claptrap] without being ridiculed for saying it".
For people who put so much stock in ther tough, "we're the adults" salt-of-the earth self-delusion, they sure do piss-and-moan like a damp pillowcase-full of hungry puppies.
.
These are the people who are "not being allowed to even debate science, let alone deny it."
ReplyDeleteKillings of environmental and land rights activists worldwide have tripled over the past decade, bringing the death rate to an average of two per week, according to a new report by the group Global Witness.Not a bunch of keyboard commandos.
William Shockley is (or rather was) the Patient Zero of this, and ought to be adduced every single time any Ph.D. shoots their mouth off about stuff they don't have a Ph.D. in. However, that still doesn't make Simberg right.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's like them "not being allowed" to use the n-word
ReplyDeleteFTFY.
All true, but I would derail the whole thing even earlier, because they are "allowed" to discuss the issues and the policies. Even though what they say is stupid and ignorant, and in bad faith and, often enough, bought and paid for, and has much more in common with received, unquestioned "wisdom" than the scientific consensus they are belittling. Who is stopping them from "discussing" any of it? Who is even trying to? The government? Al Gore? The scientists themselves? The "liberal" media?
ReplyDeleteConservaguys have a tendency to conflate criticism with censorship. "Hey, your arguments are dumb, and don't even really merit the title 'argument,'" is NOT the same thing as "You are forbidden from making your dumb pseudo arguments."
(He did for Harry Caray, probably after his fifth Budweiser by the second inning)
ReplyDeleteLuc Montagnier comes to mind too. If nothing else, cases of Nobel Rot demonstrate the fallibility of individual scientists, and the short distance between "path-breaking genius with unique insights" and "self-delusive crank".
ReplyDeleteIn other words, the crucial role for a community of researchers all determined to find the flaws in the work of their rivals. The system depends on our small-minded envy of one another. Or so I tell myself.
an engineering degree, which requires knowledge of advanced mathematics
ReplyDelete...I suppose this is true if your Mindbogglingly-Abstruse threshold of "advanced mathematics" starts at calculus.
Oh, I think he's heard of it, and undertands it (broadly at least) just fine. I'd wager that's why he didn't mention it.
ReplyDeleteWhat is pretty clear about his article is that it isn't constructed from a position of guileless ignorance, albiet in good faith. On the contrary, it is quite clearly designed to discredit scientists and distort the facts, for the purpose of arriving at a specific ideological conclusion. Propaganda, in other words.
.
It's true - and kind of inspiring - that anyone who observes the world around them and applies themselves to the pursuit of knowledge can become a scientist of sorts. Of course rhetorically Simberg and Fleming leap over that qualification, erasing all effort and thought from the process and defining science down into nonexistence. Much like they and their NRO colleagues have done with writing.
ReplyDeleteI see what you did there.
ReplyDeleteAnd a whole bunch of scientists pointed out that the SDI program was highly unlikely to work as advertised, which to the true believers only proved that scientists hate America.
ReplyDelete+1 pendulum.
ReplyDeleteIf these articles are what your dreaming about, you need to vary your midnight snakc/drug regimen.
ReplyDelete"Kampf," you mean?
ReplyDeleteIt occurs to me that we may now know where James O'Keefe lost his grip on reality.
ReplyDeleteWOW
ReplyDeleteSure it is. Anybody can make a paper airplane. Then you just scale it up.
ReplyDeleteThis is typical conservative behavior. Anyone who has an opinion on anything is just as important to the discussion as people with an actual background in the subject area or, worse, relevant information. This is how they get stupid ideas like creationism shoulder to shoulder with scientifically accepted ideas like evolution, just for the illusion of balance.
ReplyDeleteIt makes me hopeful that those Satanists get their statue next to other religious icons on state property - http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/02/who-are-the-satanists-designing-an-idol-for-the-oklahoma-capitol/283567/
Your mention of Lysenko is more apt than you think. I'm of the opinion that these third-tier right-wing bloviators have viewed the world through a political lens for so long that they're unable to look at anything without classifying it as either conservative (and thus virtuous) or liberal, and therefore evil. Zhandov was at least clever enough to stick to Art, and attempt to produce a formula that would always result in an ideologically correct moral lesson for the audience. Lysenko was, of course, trying such inanities as creating a more socialist strain of wheat, stronger than the pathetic capitalist wheat.
ReplyDeleteI've spent a fair amount of time in research labs. Mostly as a technician; I'm a few degrees shy of claiming the 'scientist' title. I do, however, know what happens to people who find out that their model and the real world don't match up, and then insist that it's the real world that must be wrong.
I came into the lab one morning and found a blood trail leading out of the lab and off to the washroom. One of the scientists had done a number on himself with a drill press. No stitches required, but there was an impressive wad of tape on his left hand for days.
ReplyDeleteA man's only got so much bile in him. I hope he survived.
ReplyDeleteWell, if I may play Devil's Advocate for a moment, while the censorship rhetoric is always overly dramatic (because yes, censorship is something else) I think that saying "you should not have made that argument" is the same as implying "you should shut up." It's not forcibly gagging them, but it's also not inviting them to speak their minds as members of a democratic society. Compare what the more thin-skinned kind of feminist refers to as "silencing."
ReplyDeleteNow, before you conclude that my heart bleeds for the poor oppressed capitalist-troglodytes, let me add: I do not see a problem with this. They should shut their yaps and listen to the people whose job it is to know something about something. "You're an idiot. Shut the fuck up" is, to me, the only natural response to the sort of malicious idiocy they're spouting, and if it ever actually does make them stop talking (unlikely, but what can you do) then I say that is all for the good.
But then, I never understood what was so wrong with "silencing" either. Isn't that what ranty political blogs are all about - intimidating the opposition into shutting up? In fact, why are we pretending that there are any rules of conduct at all? I've rarely seen those employed by the person prescribing them, and then only in a half-hearted way of seizing the high moral ground. The only thing they really seem to be used for is to bludgeon your opponents over the head - "aha! You broke the rules! That proves that you're a bad person and by extension wrong about everything!" As a silencing tactic, one might almost say... :P
(and yes, before anyone points it out - if there are no rules, then there are no rules against pretending there are rules as a rhetorical move. It just seems overly complicated to me...)
The Koch brothers make money at least twice in the process.
ReplyDeleteRighties are so determined to derisively call everything a "religion" - environmentalism, leftism, health care, etc. - that I think it's time we adopted their definition of "religious liberty" and refuse to insure or work with anybody whose "religion" is different.
ReplyDelete"Kent, this is God. Stop playing with yourself."
ReplyDelete+1 because normal people cannot be reminded often enough what winger "opinions" are like.
ReplyDeleteBut that's totally different. It's a real skill like repairing cars or playing sports, not some frou-frou intellectual discipline.
ReplyDeleteYeah, um, normal people understand that scientists are fallible people, hence professional standards, peer review, published findings, and … (wait for it) … scientific method, mutherfukas.
ReplyDeleteThis is the old canard of ignorants promoting creationism by smugly informing us that "Evolution is merely a theory!" "Take that, libtards! Bwyayahahahahahah…."
And as Roy points out, they pretty much "discuss" science 24/7. What they call "censorship" is that they've been told they are wrong, let's move on.
ReplyDeleteIn the Conservative Husband-Daddy Handbook, "discussion" is defined as "do what I say or it's back in the pit for you."
conservatives elect more than their share of amazingly dimwitted people to public office, and those people are probably smarter than their constituents
ReplyDeleteYou're forgetting that knowledge in all its forms is deeply frowned upon in conservative circles. Even having an extensive knowledge of the Bible is a serious handicap.
These people love them some dumb, and the dumber the candidate, the better they like 'em. Toss in a healthy dose of mean and you've got a Tea Party dream candidate.
Logical argument fail: They can't challenge the science so they have to discredit the 99% of qualified scientists who agree with the major climate change conclusions by calling them "arrogant" and referring to those of us who trust in what these scientists say as religious nuts. I'd say "good luck with that" but as far as half of our political establishment goes it's working. Actually they do challenge the science because it's snowing in April and Al Gore lives in a big house QED.
ReplyDeleteSatellite photos of the shrinking Greenland ice cap? Defund NOAA!
And what are electrolytes? They're what Brawndo's got!
ReplyDeleteNow that is pure scientific reasoning. If it ain't tautological, it ain't shit.
Can you imagine waking up one morning and thinking to yourself, "Man, I'd really rather be living in Bern, Switzerland, in 1548 than right here right now." I'd argue that most of these wingnuts don't realize it but that's really where they're coming from. Who needs science? Who needs intellectual freedom and rational self-government? Just give me a John Calvin to run my life and everything will be A-O-fucking-K. These people revere the Founders, but as Bill Maher put it, "They would fucking hate you."
ReplyDelete""Find a book. Hold it over the floor. Now release it. Write down what you observe. Boom! You’ve just become a scientist""
ReplyDeleteStep 3, for conservatives only: add "CUZ GAWD SAID SO, AMEN" to the end of all your observations in place of any sort of explanation. Failure to do so means you're a gay Communist who hates MERIKA.
They revere the Founders as they picture the Founders in their imagination. Had these nitwits been around in 1776, they'd have been rooting for the King. Had they been around in 1786, they'd be cheering the 3/5 compromise. Had they been around in 1812, they'd have been carrying sandwiches and lemonade to the fleet bombarding Ft. McHenry--and they would have loudly denounced Francis Scott Key as a liberal, traitorous poet who couldn't even rhyme properly (kind-of a proto Flava Flave).
ReplyDeleteI wanna be a sex therapist.
ReplyDeleteI've been watching it and enjoying it immensely.
ReplyDeleteThe segment about the evolution of the eyeball did seem to "troll" the Creationists. I appreciated the decision to explain the eyeball's development instead of the horse's, which is more usual in the teaching of evolution.
The Creationists often use the eyeball as an example of complexity and perfection that could never have evolved without Divine Guidance. Dr. Tyson certainly put a pin in that bubble.
Apropos of nothing, that does sound like a "Coney Island of the mind." I'd better google it.
ReplyDeleteThat characterization of Liberals as being "too emotional" has always seemed strange to me.
ReplyDeleteAfter all, we are ALL creatures of emotion, even those of us who pretend otherwise. Listening briefly to the likes of Rush Limbaugh shows this to be true. Fear, anger and pride are the chief emotions to be found there, and there isn't even the slightest attempt of stoicism.
In my opinion, the bar on Art has been lowered to that level for a long time now.
ReplyDeleteHey, that sort of thing worked in the movie Flight of The Phoenix.
ReplyDeleteThe Right's attacks on Science are entirely logical from the point of view of the rigid social hierarchy.
ReplyDeleteThe Pre-Enlightenment method of thought is simple and easy to understand: Truth comes from Authority. If you want to know what the truth is, you go and find the man in charge, and ask him.
The idea that the universe is knowable to anyone with the capability of collecting data and the capacity to reason is a direct affront to that. Truth should come from on high, from the rich and powerful! Scientists are not generally rich OR powerful; how dare they pretend to reveal the truth of things?
Nor can he tell Shineola from... that other stuff.
ReplyDelete"This theory goes as follows, and begins now: Rush Limbaugh is pointy at one end, much much wider in the middle, and smaller again at the other end."
ReplyDeleteThis morning I dreamt my husband and I played professional ice hockey for Vietnam. STILL made more sense than "I can't talk about what I'm talking about!"
ReplyDelete"We are all scientists"
ReplyDeleteNo, no we're not. Actual scientists use a thing called The Scientific Method, whereby hypotheses are formulated and data collected to see if from that suite of hypotheses there might be one that explains the results from analyzing the data, and if you get a real good one, you might get a theory out of it.
What the deniers do is decide what the results will be, then go looking for data to confirm what they want to see. Hell, that's not right. What the deniers do is look at all the climate change studies, look at where their paychecks come from and then scream that the scientists are all stupid, on the take, etc., with a side order of Jebus.
Your mention of Lysenko is more apt than you think.
ReplyDeleteHarumph. I assure you, sir, it is exactly as apt as I think. I've spent too long being involuntarily marinated in religiously-motivied right-wing politics.
Oh, and if you don't mind a nosy question:
[Nudges wetsuit under desk with foot] Well ...
what field are you working in?
Oh! Oh, now I'm merely a glorified computer support technician. I don't have to do this, you know. I'm a qualified biophysicist. I only do this because I enjoy bein' me own boss. Which I am not. That's where it all falls down, of course.
Everybody likes kampfing!
ReplyDeleteI don't see what the discussion had to do with Quantum ElectroDynamics.
ReplyDeleteAnd, right on time: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/04/17/fox-host-elisabeth-hasselbeck-climate-science-is-just-a-product-thats-sold-to-americans/
ReplyDeleteI'd like to sign on to everything Philadelphia Lawyer has said here.
ReplyDeleteBut on the subject of "Silencing" I think it has an important history to think about that long predates feminism. Historically in small communities and in families some people have always been, for reals, silenced. Apostates, critical thinkers, outsiders, slaves, poor people, women, juniors, and children are all people who have been literally silenced (the scold's bridle, shunning, exile, punishment, censorship, book burning). Its a real thing.
Historically, as PL points out, the people who haven't been silenced, literally or figuratively, are older, wealthier, whiter, men-nier, from the upper class sects or religious groups of their time, from the best schools, with the most money to pay other people to speak for them. Those people have access to lots of ways and times and places in which to get their point across. Even if you could shut them up in, say, your women's group or in your book club they simply have so many other venues for their voices and opinions that its almost a meaningless gesture.
When we worry about people being silenced it is because we have a strong and wellfounded belief that the kinds of ideas and experiences they have are otherwise hidden from us--we can't know about them until this person speaks--and also that their ideas and experiences need to be expressed in the public sphere or in this situation because that is important to them (and to us as a society). I'd argue that its important to the person because finding your voice and arguing your point is part of civil society and human development, and its important to us as a society because sometimes in that previously silenced voice is great wisdom, or great pain, or a different experience that we need to hear about.
But its not always important for each person to always be heard--especially when the voice of an important and wealthy person crowds out other people's voices and fills the public square with what is really a very standard, uninteresting, uninformed or dominant view.
How very frankensteiny! What is your field, bighank53, I've always wondered?
ReplyDeleteI think it's worth mentioning--in addition to Aimai's comments, which are (as usual) entirely on-point--that there's a huge difference between "you should shut up, because you're just a woman/member of a minority group/young person/poor person" and "you should shut up, because every time you open your mouth the signal-to-noise ratio drops."
ReplyDeleteThe latter can, of course, be the language used to express the former sentiment, so we should be always be appropriately skeptical of it. But if I can demonstrate, with reference to a record of things someone has actually said, that the latter is true--that the speaker is some combination of uninformed, thoughtless, or deliberately trying to cloud an issue--then it can be entirely warranted to tell that someone to shut up so everyone else can continue having a meaningful conversation.
So would that make you a kampf ire girl?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Robert M. and Aimai.
ReplyDeleteFear, anger, and pride are strong, manly emotions, so they don't count.
ReplyDeleteCompassion, love, and empathy are the weak, womanly emotions that liberals are beholden to.
We don't even have to hypothesize about what side they would have wanted to win in the Civil War...
ReplyDeleteWell, Jimmy Stewart WAS an Air Force general...
ReplyDelete"...I'm hiding books, just in case."
ReplyDeleteI was thinking about rereading Handmaid's Tale, just to note some events worth watching out for. Didn't that start out with someone machine-gunning Congress or something? Hmm...the NRA seems to be a little behind schedule; must be why they're so shrill.
I used a needle to get a splinter out. I'm a surgeon!
ReplyDeleteI get all my science from former reality TV stars.
ReplyDeleteYour very rich uncle, if you're lucky...
ReplyDeleteWhy do you Laff at my mighty Curve?!
ReplyDeleteWith only 6% of scientists self-ID-ing as Republican, it's obvious they don't really want degrees. They just want people who *have* degrees to shut the fuck up.
ReplyDeleteAlso too, with the massive imbalance between left and right in the halls and laboratories (and hurricane-chaser planes) of academe, they're hopelessly outgunned, and are basically fighting a shooting war with propaganda. Fine for them as long as Science! sits there and doesn't shoot back. Hope that starts to change soon...
A lot of otherwise intelligent people in and around SF got embarrassingly tumescent about that shit.
ReplyDeleteYou know what an "expert" is, right? X is the unknown quantity", hahahaha, and a "spert" is a drip under pressure. Hahahaha.
ReplyDeleteI don't know how many times I've heard that from Righties, both on and off the radio. I can't imagine being stupid enough to say that and mean it.
Whywhywhy do people want to "debate" shit they know not from a hole in their Shinola? I like to read sites teeming with erudite technical discussions (little of which I usually understand, but hey, I might learn something) but I would never dream of tramping into the comments with my unlicensed "opinions". I can understand Conservatives not liking the whole concept of anthropogenic global warming (I'm not crazy about it myself) but what gives a know-nothing-and-proud-of-it talk show weasels the right to drum total bullshit into millions of gullible heads every day? "It's a Free Country" just doesn't seem to cover it, you know? I know I'm on shaky Constitutional ground here (well fuck, 5/9 of the SCOTUS is a walking San Andreas Fault if we wanna go there) but this shit is awful close to "FIRE! in a crowded theater" territory. It's gonna cost us dearly, and there ain't shit we can do about it. I'm not a climate scientist, but if I were, I swear I'd be organizing an armed rebellion...
ReplyDeleteSatellite photos of the shrinking Greenland ice cap? Defund NOAA!
ReplyDeleteGrrrrr. The Bush abministration did so much of almost exactly that in a sane world, it would be a national embarrassment. Then again, in a sane world there wouldn't have been a Bush abministration to start with...
I have to say I liked Sagan's original better, but still, it's good stuff. And yeah, every show seems to have a few lines aimed right at the fundamentalists. That's worth it right there. the cheesy ship? Looks better on the outside, I think, but those mis-aligned rails right up front bug the hell out of me. And those cartoons...I'm guessing the budget is a bit lower this time around.
ReplyDeleteNope, just read the day's headlines.
ReplyDeleteI'm always struck by 'It's the Civil War all over again!". What the hell do you mean, again?
it was said that [Pauli] was such a good theorist that any experiments would
ReplyDeleteself-destruct simply because he was in the vicinity. For fear of the
Pauli effect, the experimental physicist Otto Stern banned Pauli from his laboratory in Hamburg despite their friendship.[1]
LOL.
I am a research & development tech: you design something and I'm the poor slob who has to figure out how to build it. Or fix it. Or, as is common, toss the whole thing in the bin and start over from scratch.
ReplyDeleteHow cool. I bet you'd get on like a house afire with my brother who is eternally patenting and building stuff in microtech.
ReplyDeleteI followed that link to CNN which has become a terrible place to find news, but what is worse is that the article features Bill Bennett who is one of the creepier creeps on the right. He may have been able to identify the problem, but his solution is to privatize our Public schools via his own for profit group.
ReplyDeleteTeaching the children more creationism, which is typical rightwing science, won't produce any actual science majors. They may do alright with math and engineering but I doubt it. Since they question Gravity because it too is "just a theory", I wouldn't bet on them being able to build an actual bridge.
This is more like an avanlanche situation where the Republican party ... http://hqwiki.com/topten-sexy-female-celebrities
ReplyDeleteHighly trained, hard-working, mostly underpaid professionals. I do not know a single "rich" scientist in the sense of a "true" scientist doing original research, and not someone who accidentally invented something that can be sold on late-night infomercials. And I know a lot of scientists. The ones in climate research are pathetically underpaid, always wasting huge chunks of valuable time scratching for grants, and in it only because they would really like, please, to see the grandkids of today inherit a livable world.
ReplyDelete